“Tanks” for the memories?

"There are two types of plumbers: Those who have installed tankless water heaters, and those who will.”

That’s what an industry rep told me earlier today, and if his statement that the tankless-water-heater market is growing at a 40 percent annual clip is accurate, his description of plumbers will prove prophetic. Who knows what might someday happen to the millions of standard tank models out there.

“Green” is a major theme at this year’s International Builders’ Show, and one of the easiest ways to become more environmentally sound and save money is to replace a standard water heater for a high-efficiency tankless model. Tankless manufacturers claim they save consumers 25 percent on the cost of heating water. Throw in possible tax credits for installing one, and you can see why some people are eager to go tankless. A spokesperson from Bosch, a leading maker of these appliances, told me they are popular for their efficiency and also claimed they provide endless hot water, are backed by longer warranties (15 years versus 10 for the tank versions), and have twice the life expectancy.—Michael DiLauro

Essential information: Visit GreenerChoices.org for the latest news on environmental issues and expert advice on ways to save energy and money every day.

Comments

[gustavo espinoza]

Does anyone have experience with the Titan tankless water heater

[cc]

yea. I've installed three of them, because they keep breaking. I have to get another one, or something tomorrow.

[John Tornes]

The Bosch model 250SX LP tankless water heater was installed following all enclosed instructions. It was installed inside my home on a basement wall. My LP gas provider made all necessary connections. Initially, the unit operated poorly. The reason for this problem was low water pressure because my water source is a well with a 30 gallon pressure tank. I did not have enough water pressure and water volume to dependably activate the tankless water heater. I increased the water pressure and the unit worked fine as long as I did not use the low water volume shower and sink nozzles. Another problem I found with this unit is the need to run several gallons of water before hot water reaches the user. And my unit is within 15 feet of my kitchen sink and showers.
The Unit operated for two years. January of 2008, the heat exchanger in heater cracked due to cold weather in Jan. '08. I called the warranty people for Bosch and they told me that it froze because I did not connect combustion air to an outside source. I repaired and re-installed the heat exchanger. The unit still does not operate. I believe that failure of the unit to function is due to water from the burst heat exchanger entering the carburetor through the combustion air intake. I have called the technical service people and they have not returned my call.
Another individual with a similar unit of the same brand had his unit freeze, and they replaced his unit. These units need to have a door on the outside of the exhaust vent that prevents the cold air from entering the unit and allowing water in the heat exchanger to freeze. None of these issues are addressed in the installation of the unit.
These units are intended to save energy while providing plenty of hot water. They do that. I have invested $1200 in the unit and installation costs. I would have spent additional money to insure that the unit would not freeze. There was no reference to this issue in the installation instructions.
I am concerned that others living in colder climates will have the same freezing problems that I have had. These units require that you use additional water to achieve the necessary volume and pressure to make them operate. They are at least 4 times more expensive than an electric water heater. When you shut the hot water off, the unit shuts off and you must run two more gallons of water to get more hot water again. That is a waste of water.
Bosch doesn’t seem to care much about costumer satisfaction. I have contacted them several times, and left messages, but never heard from them.
I am now the proud owner of a new tank type water heater.

[Kenneth Jeffus]

I got a Bosch 125 Aquastar some years ago. The hot water will not stay on in a mixing faucet if the cold water is also used. Three plumbers paid several car notes trying to correct the installation. I give up. I will replace it with either a standard gas fired or perhaps a heat pump type. Maybe I'll get a few bucks back selling the copper.

[Rich Cook]

My brother also related to me that the tankless water heater was bad news. He had to provide lots of extra circuits and rewire things to get the required amps to the unit, then it failed to operate. He ended up returning it and buying something else.

[Ted Lagueux]

I bought a Bosch Aquastar unit about August of '04. I installed it in my cellar following the directions given. It supplied end-
less hot water for me and my two teenagers even with a "high flow" shower. In 4 years, we've not run out of hot water. EXCEPT,
when the unit froze up the first winter. I called the number given and explained the problem. They admitted having numorous problems in cold weather areas (I live in Maine). They sent me a new heating core with updated information. It had frozen up because the flue pipe wasn't high enough. Since raising the flue pipe to the updated specifications, I've had no problems and have enjoyed my endless supply of economical hot water. I would
suggest a professional installation.

[Izzy Pasoziak]

I bought a Bosch Aqua star. and had nothing but problems. I live in an igloo, in Alaska without heat. I am sick and tired of the dam thing freezing up. I don't understand? it is only -70 degrees and can't understand why I CAN'T GET hot water!!!!!poor me!!!!

[David Van Cleve]

We are thinking of installing solar hot water heating and a tankless gas (propane)water heater, but someone told me they are not compatible. Does anyone know for sure?

[kriesel]

After five years, we have had NO problems or inconveniences with our Takagi TK2. We are just saving propane by not heating water 24 hours a day. And it is great to take long showers while using the dishwasher, etc at the same time. My wife designs homes and the biggest problem she has talking to consumers about tankless water heaters is explaining that a tankless water heater is NOT an instant water heater. It takes the same amount of time to clear the cold water in the pipe whether you have a tank heater, tankless heater, electric or gas. (Excluding recurculating systems, of course) There has been a lot of bad press/word of mouth in our area because the industry labelled the tankless units as "instant" hot water heaters.

[Catalina]

I purchased a Titan N-120 about a year and a half ago from www.titantankless.com and it has been great. When I have company I dont ever have to worry about running out of hot water as it is ENDLESS!! My electric bill dropped about 30 dollars a month after I got it. This may sound weird but I noticed improvements in my skin and hair as the water is cleaner from this. I read tanks models harbor bacteria, rust and slim..yucch.
Just wanted to say I LOVE IT..no problems!!

[Robb]

We have had a Bosch Aquastar unit for five years and it has performed very well with no problems serving a family of five w/ two full bathrooms & dishwasher. Just recently the unit developed an intermittent problem, and a plumber - a certified Bosch installer - told me the problem is due to the original installation being done incorrectly: the first flue bend is too close to the unit. He proved it by showing me the installation spec and the damage to the top of the unit caused by long term excessive heat. He was very knowledgeable about the potential pitfalls of tankless water heaters, in his experience mostly due to improper installations. After looking at repair cost I've decided to replace it with another Bosch, a new more gas-efficient model. The lesson for me is to make sure the installer is trained/experienced on installing your model and doesn't take any shortcuts.

[Jesse Henkaline]

I am in the market for a tankless water heater. So I read all of the consumer comments. Some good quite a few bad. One thing I wonder is why people keep calling them HOT water heaters. If the water was hot you wouldn't need to heat it. It is just a WATER HEATER. Food for thought.

[Jerry L.]

Tankless water heaters are expensive and overrated! They take longer to provide hot water than even a standard hot water tank. Water and time are wasted down the drain while waiting for this hot water to reach the tap! A great alternative is a Hot Water Lobster Instant Hot Water Valve! It's a recirculation system that conserves water while also providing instant hot water throughout your entire home! It's easy for anyone to install, works off of the homes existing plumbing, and only costs $179.95!

The Hot Water Lobster uses no electricity and is pump free, so it creates no noise. It is made in the U.S.A., has a 10-year warranty, and can be easily installed in under 10 minutes.

Check it out at:
http://www.hotwaterlobster.com/

[T. Hulme]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Noritz brand tankless water heater.

Thanks

[Rob]

My two next door neighbors have Noritz N-069M tankless water heaters installed on the side of their homes and they love them.

[Mike]

I see that there are pros and cons to tankless but most of the comments are about gas units has anyone used or have info on the elctric units I was looking at the Bosch or the Stiebel-Eltron Electric. Thanks.

[Jenifyr Bedard]

We are installing two gas tankless water heaters. Both Rheam. One is for outdoors the other is for indoors. Any pros and cons with them and anything I should know in advance before the contractor/plumber install them?

Thanks.

Jenifyr

[nancy]

I have 2 questions.
Has anyone ever used an American Standard central a/c unit? What are your thoughts and pros and cons over Rheem/Rudd and Trane?

2nd: My GC wants to put in a tankless water heater. My plumber does not like them but GC does. I guess were looking at an electric Titan. Yes my service into the house is already being updated to 200 amp. I havent looked at any models yet. I am still not sold on these over the standard water tanks. Anyone have any thoughts or pros and cons on going this way? Any suggestions on companys to look into? My one concern, I have only heard about and not experienced, is the surge of electricity you draw when you turn on a faucet or your shower. Can anyone provide experience one way or the other about this?
Thanks appreciate any insight you can provide.

[Eric Smith]

We want to get a Rinnai R75LSi. But we're wondering about the plumber's profit margin, in addition to his hourly labor charge. We could get the equipment from an online company for less, then get a plumber to install it for just the hourly labor charge.

For example, our plumber wants nearly $1400 for the unit, and $60 per foot for the vent pipe. The unit is available from online companies for prices ranging from $725 to $1150. The vent pipe seems to be much cheaper online too, but we would have the problem of not knowing exactly which pieces we would need, and probably not being able to return the ones we don't need.

We're thinking the best approach is to ask our plumber for a price match. But we're not sure what we're going to do if he says he can't do that.

[Jeff Lang]

I would like to see any comments people have on tankless water heaters made by a company called Blueair [www.blueair.com]; they also make air purifiers. Perhaps the October issue of the magazine could include Blueair in their articles about tankless water heaters.

[Richard]

I had a Bosch AquaStar 250SX NG installed two years ago, and it has been nothing but trouble. I had it installed by a general contractor as part of a kitchen/laundry remodel, and that was probably a mistake. These things are not for the inexperienced or faint of heart. Even though the original installer re-piped all the gas and water lines, it was still inadequate. This thing needs major gas flow. The big problem is that the heater shuts itself off when it doesn't get enough gas. So if you're in the middle of a shower, you need to shlep back to the water heater and "reboot" it.

It really doesn't like a light flow of lukewarm water. In fact, I don't think that is possible with a tankless.

Two different plumbers (including the so-called Bosch-certified one) told me to replace it with a Takagi. Of course this process is going to set me back north of $3,000, which I'm not very happy about. I'm wondering if I should just go back to a tank. Not very easy, as one won't fit where the tankless is installed (which is why we went tankless in the first place). I've seen some positive feedback on the Takagi here. I'm looking at the TK3-OS. Anyone have any feedback on this?

[Susan Hogue]

HA! how lucky you have a 1400.00 price quote.

MY PLUMBER wants 4200.00 for a Rinnai or Noritz...
Yes, I nearly fainted wondering if this could really be true.

Lowe's wants 1500.00 for a Bosch Aquastar, but you all don't sound too happy with THAT unit.

I don't think I want to run several gallons to get hot water,
nor do I want to chance 'freezing' pipes or 'faulty' installation.

I am probably going with the regular tank heater.

Susan

[T Longenecker]

Has anyone any comments on a Navien Condensing Tankless water heater?

Thank you

[Garri]

I just signed on the dotted line for the Takagi T-K3, so I'll let you know, Richard. It is a whole lot of money, but my old regular tank has been nothing but problems for 6 years. My plumber absolutely loves this company over Noritz, even. We'll see if I want to strangle him in the end. I appreciate all of the posts, here. We were able to discuss water pressure, gas pressure, etc. because I'd read these entries. Thanks, all!

[R Rueppel]

Has anyone had any experience with Paloma tankless water heaters? They are the brand sold and installed by Home Depot. Also wondering if anyone has experience with Home Depot installation services in general.

[Adam]

Power Star Bosch Model #115 Family of 3
For Arkansas south of Little Rock . Ok so we moved from NYC to Arkansas for more land less taxes. Use to dealing with Con ed for gas with no problems, Well out here its different , We use propane that is delivered to us and it seems like these companies like ferral gas take advantage of customers that have no choice , so I kicked them to the curb , I ran new Lines, 6 gauge wire from My 200 amp breaker 4 hot lines ON 40 AMP breakers ( 2) and easy flex 3/4 piping that was connected to old water pipes from old water heater and it is working great, small unit 22 pounds , If you know what you doing to install it can be well worth it , Gas is rising , electric is the new way to go . Kick the gas companies to the curb , peace

[Ken]

Has anybody tried this?

It seems like most of the negatives of tankless water heaters could be eliminated by having a small tank-type water heater just after the tankless heater. This way there is a small supply "buffer" or "cache" of hot water that is kept warm but a full continuous supply right behind the tank.

This would not be as great in energy savings but would probably be very acceptable to almost all tank replacement situations.

For example, I have an 80 gallon tank heater that is about to be replaced. If I replaced it with a 20 gallon tank heater and a tankless heater then the 20 gallon heater would almost always get hot water in so would only run to keep it hot so would likely use way less energy than the old one keeping 80 gallons hot and getting it from input temp to hot in the first place. The tankless heater just gets it from input temp to hot.

I am not sure but think this whole system would benefit from less energy usage in total than the system it replaces PLUS has unlimited, buffered hot water.

[heather]

If you live in earthquake or hurricane territory, or other areas prone to natural disasters, a water heater tank may provide safe, clean water for drinking purposes in the event of a disaster. Water can be drained from the water heater faucet if the water heater has not been damaged.

[Roberto]

I've been thinking of installing a tankless water heater for the last 2 years but because I wanted to be sure that the product "comes as advertised", I just kept on postponing seriously calling a dealer. Well, to be honest, I did call one local dealer about 8-9 months ago and after getting some information, said he'll call me back. He never did and I can never be thankful enough, especially after reading J. Tornes experience. Thanks for an enlightening ad!

[Becky]

I am renovating a very small apartment and am in dire need of conserving space and I dont want to switch from electric to gas. Has anyone tried the Stiebel eltron tempra 20? I am wondering if it will be sufficient for a small apartment with only one bathroom?

Also, has anyone in Canada (or montreal more specifically) purchased anything from the company, "Low Energy Systems". They claim to offer the best technical support in the business. Can anyone verify this claim?

[Roldan]

I've used the Titan Tankless water heaters for 15 years and for 5 of the last 10 years I have had a spare heater (3 active & 1 spare) since the elements burn out approximately every 6-8 months. They do not work well with certain faucets.

In one experience the lights dimmed in the house, circuit breakers popped, and sparks flew...Not a good experience.

At one point I was really concerned and wrote the company a letter, of course did not receive a response.

I am currently going to a tankless gas model with a reputable company (Bosch or Rheem), still undecided. I guess there is a reason why none of the large manufacturers make these units.

[David Jakoby]

In March 2006, we upgraded the plumbing system in out 1950's Wisconsin home. We replaced all the galvanized pipes with copper in the basement and PEX for everything above. We added a whole house filter, replaced the 20 year old water softener and installed a Bosch AquaStar 125FX tankless water heater. Since I did all the removal and installation myself we saved about $3,500. Our only regret is that we didn’t go to the larger AquaStar unit. The 125 meets our needs, but in the end after rebates, it would only have been $200-$300 more. Now, 2½ years later, we have had no problems. Our salt consumption has dropped from 80 lbs/month to 200 lbs for all of last year and our gas bill has dropped 25% over our 2005 usage.

[Johan Strack]

Please mention scaling issues within your article. Scaling within the heat exchangers or elements are not covered by the warranty and scaling will happen VERY quickly since these units BLAST heat the water. Also just a slither of scale lowers the performance of the heat exchanger so that the 15 to 25% savings is greatly diminished. NREL did a great study on these... www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/32922.pdf it's data agrees with the prior consumer reports article... a 25 year payback! not to mention scaling issues.

[David S]

@Johan
Thx for the link. I see nothing in it about 25 year payback but I'm not a perfect reader.

Scaling is always an issue in any system. Water quality seems the biggest factor. I am grateful for our low minerals water source.

I'll be buying a Stiebel/Eltron Tempra 24 electric if CR doesn't pan it. A pair of 60A 220V breakers in a new 200A SquareD QO Loadcenter will hopefully do it. Just the two of us (wife and I) and the piping runs are all less than 10 feet. Very small house.

[a cassedy]

the three gas companies (LP) that serve me alll sell Rinnai...what about the competition and should I purchase Rinnai or another brand and have them install???

[Vinny from Long Island]

I have to replace my 50 gal tank just started to leak 12 years old time to replace. I was looking into tankless but can not find any comparisons on any units. I will be installing it myself.I am looking at 3 the -
BOSCH Aquastar 2700es -Gas -$1200
Rheem RTG-74PVN - Gas - $799
Rinnai R94LSI - Gas - Unknown
Venting is about $300.
Does anybody know any of the Pro's and con's of each the only con I see is dishwashers do you have to run the faucet all the time while the dishwasher is running?

Thanks in advance

[Melissa Wagner]

Consumer need to be educated and stop comparing contractor-grade products to those purchased at a big-box store. Whether it is a water heater, sump pump, toilet, etc. it is not apples to apples with what a reputable licensed plumbing company installs. In addition, asking plumbing companies to price-match an internet site with no overhead is like asking your doctor for a discount. Would you ask your surgeon or doctor for a discount if your child was sick? Would you go with the CHEAPER doctor or surgeon? NO, you would go with the best.
Licensed plumbers, at least in our state, are required to have 5 years (10,400 hours) of apprenticeship before they become licensed plumbers. In addition, they have to pass a 2-day exam that has a 65% failure rate. We charge $150 per hour. WE are responsible for your water and sewer. If a plumber screws up either, he/she can put you in hospital, flood your home, blow-up your home, etc. Why screw around for $100 or even $500 savings???
Most people will pay a computer-repairman $100/hr to fix their home computer. They require no formal training or a 4-hr certification course. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[al blome]

you guys have do your home work. i looked into these tankless heaters for about a year before i bought a rennai r94lsi gas model.it only requires a minimun flow rate of .05 gallons per min. thats about a 3/8" flow stream from the fualset, not much. an with the staged burners, it only uses 15,000 btu's at low flow an only increases as the flow demands.other brands fire full blast when activated.(not very efficant). my gas bill has been cut by two thirds this summer,with only the range,dryer and water heater operating.how's $15.00 mouth sound. $7.00 of that was the delivery charge. ONE WORD OF WARNING! you have to have the unit installed by a certified plumber,to get the warranty. NOT CHEAP. i got around this by doing all the prep work myself. you'll have to run so larger gas pipe to the unit,it just hangs on the wall, and requires only a 110 receptcale to plug into. the derect vent pipe s dirt cheap compared to other brands.all they had to do was connect the water and gas i ran over to the unit.$250.00. NOT BAD CONSIDERING THEY WOULD CHARGE ANY WHERE FROM $1000 TO $1500 JUST FOR LABOR. I NEVER RUN OUT OF HOT WATER AND WHEN I SHUT IT OFF , IT COST ME NOTHING .

[Green Ghetto B&B]

Hmmm, cold weather climate has caused me to consider the Rinnai 94 Lsi - the advert promotes the "anti-freeze-up" feature.

I seek an instant heater for space savings, not economy. 1000 sq' house - can have some storage in the laundry room if I omit a tank heater.

I've seen all the re-taped returns of the Bosch versions in the back of Lowes - the land of broken and mis-fit H2O heaters...

So the local place want's $1219.00 for the 75Lsi and $1544.00 for the 94 Lsi... choosing the 94Lsi because the water comes out of the ground at less than 40F at my place... two baths, one shower, dishwasher and washing machine.

Any expriance with this? Big sale on the 10th of Oct and I am ready to pull the trigger....

Any input

[rick]

Had the Takagi T-K3 installed in my home a year ago in Toronto. Works like a charm and I'm really pleased. Two showers without water saver shower heads and both showers get really hot. Fills up a Jacuzzi without problems. You don't have to run hot water full blast to ignite burnes. It's just great. I've heard mixed reviews of Bosche tankless heaters (heat exchangers mainly) and bad things about Paloma heaters at Home Depot. I've heard countless times that they fail to ignite. I've heard only positive things about Takagi and so I purchased - I'm very very happy I went with Takagi.

[Tim]

We have a Navien CR-210. We chose this model because it could be vented up the existing chimney (some 40 feet up). When someone is in the shower, turning on any other tap in the house causes the unit to send a "cold sandwich" into the pipes. Sometimes it is just cooler water, other times it is totally cold, meaning the Navien turned off and turned on again. We just had warranty service. In desperation, the service man spoke to Navien who blame the pressure compensating shower valve. They say there is no fix for this problem, just don't turn on a tap when someone's in the shower. So much for computer controlled wonder appliances.

[Chicago Bears Fan]

I have a Takagi T-K3 and could not be any happier with it. I have had it installed for over a year now. Throughout the winter, it provided enough hot water to run a shower, a bathtub, and the dishwasher at the same time. Even during a bitter week-long sub-zero cold snap, we never had any freezing or slush-ups. That was one of the reasons we chose Takagi, they have the best freeze protection in the industry. Also, my plumber had installed many of the brands you have all mentioned already (Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, etc...) and found that Takagi has the most safety features and the highest quality product on the market.

As for my gas savings, I have easily seen a drop in therms used by 30% even though our how water usage has gone up considerably with our young child taking baths everyday now. What scared me the most was that the cost per therm had risen from $0.80 to $1.30 a therm. I hear it might hit $1.70 this winter! I'm so glad we purchased a Takagi T-K3 for our home!

[Ryan]

Rinnai is the best brand you can buy on the market. I know, because I sell them. My company has been selling them for a number of years now and I have not seen or heard one customer complaint when it comes to their Rinnai. In the year and a half that I've been selling them, I've never received one back. Rinnai stands by their product and makes sure that 100% of their customers are satisfied. The only other recommendation I would make is to have a Rinnai certified plumber install one. For more info, visit www.foreverhotwater.com .

[Doug & Dianne Wiech]

I have just recently had to replace our HWT. Still found too many problems with tankless systems.
Went with a new high efficiency electric tank and added an add-on heat pump,Approx. 18"x14"x14", made by Air Tap. (airtap.com) This unit has proven to be super energy efficient, quiet, and easy to install for a DIYS, requiring only 110 volt for power. More manufacturers are coming on line next year