Tankless water heater recall

If you are among the increasing number of people using a tankless water heater at your home, check your model to ensure you’re not facing a potential carbon-monoxide problem.

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission on February 20, 2007, announced a recall of 42,200 Power Vent 199,900-Btu-per-hour tankless water heaters because of the risk of carbon-monoxide poisoning. The CPSC says you should stop using your unit immediately. The water heaters ($800 to $1,300) were sold between May 2004 and December 2006 under the Paloma, Rheem, Rheem-Ruud, and Richmond brand names.

Pieces inside the water heater can move around during transport, causing an air-filter door switch to malfunction, according to the CPSC. If the switch fails and the door cannot close properly, dust and lint can accumulate and lead to a CO-poisoning hazard. As of the recall date, no injuries had been reported.

For more information and to find the model number of recalled units, contact Rheem at 866-369-4786 (8 a.m. to 8 p.m. ET Monday through Friday; 10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. ET on weekends) or go to www.tankless-recall.com. The company will repair your water heater at no charge.—Mitch Lipka

Essential information: Read  “Protect yourself against carbon-monoxide poisoning” for expert tips on avoiding CO poisoning. Also see our report on CO detectors and our exclusive interactive on smoke detectors. (Both are available to subscribers.)

Comments

[Dave Murray]

I came across the information covering the recall of tankless hot water heaters. I also saw your comments in the article covering how to select a hot water heater replacement(02/05). Basically, you were negative on the idea of replacing hot water heater tanks with tankless heaters because of the period of time required to recoup the additional costs. You estimated that the energy consumed by a tankless heater would be roughly one-half in comparison to a tank heater. Wouldn't you think that it is time to reconsider your position given the potential for energy savings and your current efforts to encourage buying green?
I was researching the topic of tankless hot water heaters which, I am led to believe, have been used extensively in Europe and elsewhere around the world for twenty or more years. I have spoken with two plumbers about the possibility of replacing my hot water heater tanks with tankless heaters. In both instances, the plumbers were very negative about the idea of using tankless heaters. One plumber suggested that I would need multiple heaters in order to assure an adequate supply of hot water. On the other hand, my daughter who has managed a fast food franchise location told me that tankless heaters were used exclusively at the franchise retail locations and that the tankless heaters proved to be reliable and provided more that enough hot water. Needless to say, the existance of conflicting informatipn has served to be very confusing. I would like to know if you have any intention of revisiting the issue of tank vs. tankless and, if so, would you consider evaluating the various tankless products available in the marketplace? I noticed that your February, 2005 article did not rank any hot water heater brands on the basis of performance. Was that because all tank heaters are basically the same?
David H Murray
Arlington Heights, IL

[Mike Wehrenberg]

I have been using a model 220 electric tankless water heater from SETS Systems in Miami FL (www.sets-systems.com) for over 4 years. This fall the closed loop control system began overshooting and undershooting the temperature of the hot water to the point of taking a shower or bath unbearable. I emailed SETS three times over the course of 30 days asking for advice and help on what to do to repair or tune the unit. The first reply indicated that, without proof of purchase (after a month of emailing), they did not offer any support or service on the unit. I indicated that I was not yet making a warranty claim just asking for any advice to tune the unit or upgrade its controls to a digital system (rather than the analog system originally installed). I also asked them to search their records for my name on the serial number that I purchased in the fall of 2002. I got the same reply. Their records did not find me as the purchaser and they did not offer any technical support or advice without proof of purchase. This was extremely frustrating....to the point I actually bought a digital unit from American Tankless Water Heaters. The new unit has digital controls and works very well. While I am a fan of tankless water heaters, I would NOT buy or use SETS as a brand to buy. The inability to provide support and advice as well as keep accurate sales records was inexcusable.

[Donovan Smith]

Mike,

Good luck with your American Tankless Hot Water System. I purchased the model 280 in September of 2007 for our newly constructed house. We had it installed in November of 2007, right before we moved in. By the second day, we had problems with our unit. We no longer got hot water. I called their service department, and spoke with somebody named "Junior", who talked me through reseting the system. This worked for two more days, then the same problem (no hot water) occurred. Again, I called their service department. This time "Junior" had me take off the cover of the unit and read the serial number from the three thermostats. After reading the serial number to "Junior", he informed me that these thermostats are defective and have been recalled. It appears I was knowingly sold a defective unit. So "Junior" asked for my name and address and told me he was going to overnight the correct thermostats to me. This was on November 19, 2007. As of today (January 7, 2007), I have not received them. I suppose I should have asked "Junior" which overnight he was going to send them. I have called their service department numerous times, but all of my messages have gone unanswered. My most recent contact with them was today. The lady took my name, said she would go personally to get "Junior", put me on hold for a minute and a half, then came back and told me that "Junior" was not in. Once again, I left my name and telephone number. This was a little over an hour ago. Nobody has called me back yet. By the way, if your thermostats serial number starts with M-40 or M-50, you too were sold a knowingly defective unit.

[Donovan Smith]

Mike,

Good luck with your American Tankless Hot Water System. I purchased the model 280 in September of 2007 for our newly constructed house. We had it installed in November of 2007, right before we moved in. By the second day, we had problems with our unit. We no longer got hot water. I called their service department, and spoke with somebody named "Junior", who talked me through reseting the system. This worked for two more days, then the same problem (no hot water) occurred. Again, I called their service department. This time "Junior" had me take off the cover of the unit and read the serial number from the three thermostats. After reading the serial number to "Junior", he informed me that these thermostats are defective and have been recalled. It appears I was knowingly sold a defective unit. So "Junior" asked for my name and address and told me he was going to overnight the correct thermostats to me. This was on November 19, 2007. As of today (January 7, 2007), I have not received them. I suppose I should have asked "Junior" which overnight he was going to send them. I have called their service department numerous times, but all of my messages have gone unanswered. My most recent contact with them was today. The lady took my name, said she would go personally to get "Junior", put me on hold for a minute and a half, then came back and told me that "Junior" was not in. Once again, I left my name and telephone number. This was a little over an hour ago. Nobody has called me back yet. By the way, if your thermostats serial number starts with M-40 or M-50, you too were sold a knowingly defective unit.

[Water Heater]

Does anyone know of any good water heater brand to recommend? Currently looking for a new water heater to replace my old one

[Junior]

I handled Mr. Donovans tech call and he was never told of any defective parts. He originally purchased the unit on 8/2007 and the first call we received was on 12/07 at which time he was shipped replacement parts to the original address we had in file, he apparently had moved so the parts were shipped again to him again when he gave us his new address on 1/8/2008. As you can see we document every contact we have with customers and we do our best to update our records when they call in , if they advise us they have moved.

We have an excellent product and our tech support is the best in the industry, we challenge any other tankless water heater company to dispute that fact.

[c0xr]

I agree with Mike above. I love tankless water heaters. we originally put in a Seisco when we built in 2003. Every year the contacts corroded and the heater failed, inevitably at Christmas when you don't want a cold shower. They were good about sending replacements at no charge but it got old the third year in a row.

So we changed to Bosch AE-7.2 PowerStar Electric Tankless Water Heater 7.2-6.0 kW. We bought it on ebay after researching it online. But our plumber refused to install as the lines inside were 1/4" and county code requires 1/2" AND he said it would not heat fast enough for us. The seller finally gave 75% of our $ back even after we provided county requirements. He said the county ok'd installing them in hotel rooms beachside-but they are not handling a 2500sf home!

Then we tried a SETS tankless water heater. This one the plumber did install even tho we had to move water lines due to the water entering the sides of the system instead of the top. Their advertising says "no scalding" but it does. Email correspondence to their support team resulted in the advice to "remove the antiscald device". We were not comfortable with that solution and returned the unit. after much correspondence, they reimbursed us the price of the unit, but not the $700 for the plumber and electrician to install and remove that unit and install another Seisco. They have finally changed the contracts so they don't corrode.

P.S. every time we turn on the hot water, it causes the lights to flicker just a little. only noticable at night but still irritating. i would suggest a gas heater to avoid this problem. my sister has a Rinnai and it works great!

[Mick Joplin]

I recently insalled a propane tankless water heaterfrom Ameri-brand products. Problems from day one. I had a difficult time getting it to turn, the only way to make that work is to crank up the water volum and the gas. Also the water goes from scalding to cold and back, makes for uncomfortable shower. Any thoughts put there?

[Jim Boyachek]

This is crazy. Donovan Smith - I can totally relate. We are going through the exact issues you were/are. We have been in contact with Junior a few times now, but the unit is still giving us problems. I bought it for a new house also. Where do you stand on this now? Is it fixed or did you go another route? I am really frustrated over this.

[Cliff]

Like Mike, Dec 30, 2007, I too purchased a SETS heater in 2004 for my home in Tennessee. It has worked OK until about one month ago. It warms just slightly for when you turn it on and then it quits working - probably a thermastat issue.
When I called SETS they were also not able to find in their system that I purchased the unit from them. They do not return calls or emails, and were very rude when I finally would call them back and get someone on the phone.
They will not do any repairs since I can not "prove" that I purchased it from them; even though I have lived in the house where it is installed for almost twenty years. How else could the heater have gotten there? I even approached it that their warranty will transfer for a $50 charge to a new owner, but they quickly responded that I still could not prove that I had purchased the unit. Also in a rude manner.
Rather than pay them to repair the unit, I will purchase a new one from a different vendor, and SETS will be able to keep their warranty costs down.
Very disappointing for something that has a lifetime warranty.

[Gary]

I am looking into the idea of replacing my 13 year old tank system with a tankless system. Has anyone heard anything about Rannai systems.

Also has anyone ever though of using one of these systems for heating the house as well. They also have a new system for hot air. I however, have baseboard heat so I was thinking of heating the house as well as the domestic hot water with the same unit if possible.

My one concern is that the domestic water does not need to be set at the same temp as for heating the house so I don't know if I might need 2 seperate systems or not.

My house is small approx 1200sf and I also have a pellet stove that works great.

My furnace is the original with the house that was built in the fifties. So I know I will have to replace that soon as well.

I am currently using oil and would love to get away from that. My last delivery was $4.20 a gallon. 135 gallon costing $567.00 If my tank was emty it would cost me over $1000.00 to fill it this is getting crazy.

Gary
Norwalk, CT

[Janice]

Gary,
Your house & system sound just like mine. I'm going through the same dilemmas - replacing a water heater and probably the oil hot water furnace next year or two. What progress have you made?
Janice

[Jacki]

Hi, I live in Canada and I have had a SETS unit for 2 years and recently the circuit breaker blew. It is the 40 40 quad breaker made by Siesons and I can't buy one any where in Canada and Siesons USA won't return my call. Does anyone know where I can get one. It has been 2 months without hot water.

[di]

I am considering replacing my 40 gallon gas water heater with a tankless one by Bosch gwh-635-es. The Bosch website sizing guide indicated we could use a smaller unit than this one, but I was more comfortable with a larger GPM@90ºrise. Does anyone have any experience with the Bosch Pro-Tankless series? We have very hard city water, and this does concern me with regards to the life expectancy of the tankless unit.

[Mikel Wixson]

Mike & Donavan
Well I was just getting ready to call American Tankless tomorrow and order one of their units.
But now I am not so sure after reading a some of the comments on them and "Junior."
I do have to use an electric unit. Are there any other suggestions? American offers a lifetime warranty, that would lead one to think that their quality would be excellent...
Do you still feel the same about them or have they corrected the problems you were having?
Any other help from out there would be appreciated.

[John]

I too am interested in replacing a gas water heater with a Rannai unit, but must admit, I'm having second thoughts after reading all the comments. Does anyone have experience with these units? My home is in Breckenridge.

[Chris]

Does anyone have anything good to report about electric tankless water heaters? Is there a brand you'd recommend? I'm very interested, especially in the electrics, but want to have some concrete info before buying. Thanks.

[Sherman]

Wow! Tankless sure sounded like a good idea and I have to replace a 12 year-old water heater very soon. I ask a similar question to Chris...Given the opportunity to make the decision for a water heater, would you still get the tankless design?

[Lise Rheault]

My gas water heater is 16 years old and 2 home insurance companies have suggested that I replace it before it starts leaking. I would love the extra space which a tankless heater would create in my basement laundry room.
However, after reading all comments on this blog I am seriously having 2nd thoughts.
Can someone recommend a reliable one??
I live in Ottawa, Canada.

[Joseph Beal]

I can recommend Rinnai tankless water heaters. We live in Australia, and nearly every home has one here. They work great, and are very reliable. No problem providing enough hot water for three bathrooms. Here, they install them outside, but in a colder climate it will probably have to be installed inside and vented.

[Grant Benson]

I have owned several electric tankless water heaters. I am sad to say that I went through several bad experiences before I found a brand that actually lived up to the manufacturer's claims. I tried SETS, Envirotech, Seisco, and American Tankless - all of which failed miserably in my opinion. Despite the seemingly lengthy warranties offered by some of these companies, getting technical support was nothing short of a nightmare. Just goes to show that a warranty is only as good as the company behind it. After such a terrible experience, even though I believed strongly in the concept, I was reluctant to try another unit. I convinced myself to try a unit made in Germany called Stiebel Eltron Tempra 24 thinking that Europe has been using this technology for much longer than us in North America. It truly puts the other units I tried to shame! You can tell just from looking at it that it is much better in terms of engineering, manufacturing, and construction. And best of all, IT WORKS! It truly works! It even automatically adjusts power when the flow rate changes so it can keep a more precise temperature, just as the manufacturer claims. Despite the claims of the other manufacturers that I tried that their models would do this, in reality none of them did it well and some couldn't do this at all. I would highly recommend the Stiebel Eltron Tempra to anyone looking for an electric tankless.

For those looking for a gas tankless, be very careful to look at the installation costs! I was leaning in this direction at first but electric made a lot more sense due to the much, much cheaper initial cost and installation. Given that tankless heaters are a long-term investment (or should be anyway), the price of oil and gas in the future also worried me. While electricity prices will certainly rise too, historically they have risen much slower and at least they are a bit more predictable.

[Russ Fish]

I had a SETS System model 280 installed on 1/21/08. Since then hot water has become my nightmare. The water temp would fluctuate between 90 and 120+ degrees. After talking with SETS tech (David) and installing 2 more pieces of non-SETS equipment at a cost of about $700.00 (pressure control valve and a water thermostat control valve) Things seem to be improving then while showering the water went cold. Upon inspection, one of the circuit breakers had flipped off. When I turned it back on, I got a flash of light, a loud popping sound and water started to spray everywhere. SETS said they would send me their new updated version and I was without hot water for 6 days. Got the new unit installed and in less than 30 days it developed a leak and quit producing hot water. On 6/26/08 SETS general manager told me he would send me out a new unit by priority mail. It is now 7/4/08 and I have not received the unit yet. The bigger shocker is when I called on 6/30/08 to see why I hadn’t received my new unit yet I was told SETS was no longer in business and Hubbell Heaters, Inc. had brought the assets but not the liabilities. In other words the lifetime warranty was gone and any support was at the option of Hubbell Heaters. I am now 9 days and counting without hot water. My advise is to stay-a-way from anything with SETS or Hubbell on them if it is related to a Tankless Hot Water Heater. Hubbell is using the same technology as SETS and you will get the same product with a much lesser warranty plus costly service calls by your local electrician. I am retuning to a high efficiency tank system after a $2000+ lesson in “BEING GREEN ISN’T EASY.”

[charlie]

Does anyone know if the Rannai gas tankless water heater with the new exhaust venting system can be installed/connected to an exhaust vent that was previously used for a regular tank style gas water heater? The exhaust vent is sent-in about one foot from all adjacent walls(up through the ceiling in a garage).

[Bayboy]

I have researched electric tankless for the past three years, but have not yet purchased because I do not have to install at this moment. I thought I would give the industry some time to improve. I read the comments about SETS and American Tankless Waterheater and can say that both of these companies are WORTHLESS. As a matter of fact, the original founder of SETS (I think his name is Carlos Caberra) many years ago in Miami had a long history of product and customer service issues. There were 28 major complaints made to the BBB of South Florida about SETS over a three year period. Caberra sold his interest to his partners and went off to start another company -- you guessed it, American Tankless Waterheater! The same technology (although slightly updated from the original SETS), the same business philosophy, the same lack of customer support and poor business practices. The literature sounds great, especially the low flow switch technology, but I would highly recommend staying away from these companies. There will be nothing but headaches and frustration! I am glad I did not purchase from them. But now I am back in the market for an electric tankless and still do not know which company offers good product performance and customer service.

[escondave]

From everything I've read here, I think I would look at Stiebel and/or Bosch only. We recently bought a Bosch dishwasher, and I had to gulp at the price, but now I think I was pretty smart. The thing is just great. I would appreciate hearing from others who have either of those brands. And...does anyone have a thought about using a tankless electric in conjunction with a solar storage tank?

[m. gregory]

I have had a Takagi for about a year and I love it. Before that, I had a French brand--can't remember the name, but it was taken over by Bosch--and I was very happy with that one also. The service was great, even though it did require some new plumbing lines to install originally.
Here's where I got my information: They were wonderful.
Robert Schmid

Customer Support

TAKAGI - USA

5 Whatney, Irvine CA 92618

#(949) 770-7171 ext:2127

[Mike Strief]

Regarding experience with American Heat/American Tankless Water Heaters (attn: Donovan Smith, Jim Boyachek, Mikel Wixson).....

I purchased a model AH-27 (the biggest model) from American Tankless (ATWH) in March '08 for a new home I built. The unit was installed in June and failed to work properly from day one. I, like others posting to this message board, contacted ATWH technical support and eventually found myself talking to a guy named Junior. I've since learned that Junior is "Carlos Cabrera, Jr" - Son of the owner of ATWH (from what I'm told). When I described the symptoms, Junior concluded that the flow sensor mechanism was clogged and instructed me on how to repair it. I had a plumber perform this and as he was removing the part, it broke. Junior said he would send me a new one. Several days passed and it never arrived. I bagan the phone call to both the company and Junior's cell phone. Messages were never returned. I finally connected with Junior and requested that he ship another part overnight and I offered to pay the shipping. It took 2 days for him to get it shipped, I got the new part installed, and it only resolved part of the problem.

I contacted Junior again and he concluded that the main circuit board must be defective and that he would ship one to me immediately and suggested that I could easily install it myself. Several days passed and no part arrived.

I contacted the company and demanded to speak to a manager/owner and was directed to Carlos Cabrera (Sr.). Carlos agreed to ship me a brand new unit. I had it installed July 18th and it still doesn't work as advertised. The water temp varies from the high set point down to a luke-warm flow. And when demand increases for 2 fixtures, or if I try to fill a whirlpool tub with a high flow rate, the unit can't keep up at all.

At this point I'm furious. ATWH refuses to refund my money because I purchased the unit > 30 days ago. Now they are trying to convince me that the problem isn't the water heater, but rather the electrical supply.

At this point, I'm trying to figure out how to cut my losses. I've already incurred the expense of upgrading to 400amp servise to my home, charges from plumbers to repair/install parts that sometimes never arrive, and now I will need to pay an electrician to performa battery of tests to determine if the unit is powered correctly. My gut is telling me that I'm going to have to eat all of this cost and buy a standard (tank) electric water heater. The experience has been a nightmare and I would never recommend this company. Not sure I'd even recommend any type of electric tankless water heater at this point. I'm also trying to figure out if I have any grounds for legal action against this company - I suspect not.

My question to Donovan and Jim... Have either of you had any resolution? If so, how?

[Bobby Couts]

Problems with tankless heaters are never ending! Tankless hot water heaters do take longer to provide hot water! It is a great inconvenience having to wait even longer every time you need hot water! Water is also wasted down the drain while waiting for it! A great alternative is a recirculation system called the Hot Water Lobster ! Instead of waiting longer for hot water, you will get it faster! It saves water while also giving convenient access to instant hot water throughout the home! It's easy for anyone to install, works off of the homes existing plumbing, and it costs only $179.95!

The Hot Water Lobster uses no electricity and is pump free, so it creates no noise. It's made in the U.S.A., has a 10-year warranty, and can be easily installed in under 10 minutes!

Check it out at: www.hotwaterlobster.com

[Gregory Mathiesen]

I installed a Seisco RA-28 (28 kW) in Feb 2000 to replace a useless prior unit (from some Florida company, I forget). It worked great when it worked. It delivered water at a well regulated temperature, as long as the flow rate was less than its maximum capacity. The tubs had to be filled slowly, but showers and sinks required no special treatment.

The troubles began in July 2001. Between then and now I have had made 13 repairs and had numerous cases of no-hot-water along the way. Leaks required replacing the heating chambers 4 times and the outlet tube twice. The electronics board was replaced 3 times and the entire water heater was replaced once. Temperature sensors leaked and failed. We had 37 no-hot-water days over our 8.5 years of ownership.

Seisco/Microtherm has been very helpful in trouble shooting and supplying replacement parts. Their built in diagnostic codes are very helpful, but necessary all too often.

I also installed a Seisco RA-12 (12 kW) in a guest cabin/pool house in Dec 2000. The cabin is used only occasionally. The RA-12, too, was plagued with failures. Between then and now I have had made 4 repairs and had numerous cases of no-hot-water along the way. Leaks required replacing the heating chambers 2 times. The electronics board was replaced 2 times. A temperature sensors failed. We had 15 no-hot-water days over our 7.5 years of ownership.

The final straw is yet another heating chambers leak. I just ordered a Stiebel Tempra 36. I expect an improvement in domestic tranquility.

[Jmjmc24]

I have a American Tankless Hot Water heater. I have it install in a four bedroom, three bath home. I disagree with the above comments. I have not had any problems. I have spoken to Junior twice and got the correct information each time. I'm sorry to see that others have not been as fortunate in thier endeavors. I have nothing but good things to say about my Tankless heater and tell everyone i know to go to them. Contrary to popular belief it is possible to see immediate savings. I experienced a drop of 60.00 a month on my gas bill, a 30.00 drop in my water and sewage bills, yes there was a slight increase in my electric bill, but I would do it all over again. I enjoy being able to take a shower and not run out of hot water, and being 6 foot 2, pounds I put it to work every night.

[Clif Leonard, Ph.D.]

Fairly recently installed Rinnai propane tankless (12 gpm) in a 2800 sq ft house in far northern CA. Thus far I have nothing but praises. Great temperature regulation, unlimited hot water. It is installed outside so the hot water line run is in some cases a bit long but that is not the fault of the heater, just the necessity of the house design.
When we were exploring what we were going to replace our old hot water tank, we were told by plumbers electric would cost us too much and would not adequately heat the water. It appears that we have cut down on our propane bill and we certainly have plenty of hot water. Bit spendy initially but we expect with the cost of propane now we will eventually get it back.
I did consider an indoor propane tank heater with a recirculating pump but really wanted to get the heater outdoors after an expensive flood indoors from a prior tank.

[PA Watters]

Our Bosch Pro Tankless Water Heater only worked for 3 years before trouble started. Installed October 2004, by December 2007, hot water became sporadic. Our builder actually came over and "tinkered" with the filter and that "stupid little screw" and got the thing working. Come July 2008, our hot water was gone. Bosch proved to be totally useless when it came to any technical service. First, the name they gave me for their "nearest authorized repair company" was just a name & number they had picked out of the phone book. When I phone the company, they said..."oh no, not again. We have asked several times for Bosch to take us off their list of repair companies...we won't and don't work on those things". Through phone calls of my own, I found out there are only 3 companies certified to work on these babies in our area. One of them wouldn't, a second one hated the brand but would give it a try. He said experience with them was the worst...tech support was a total joke. The third company is the one who actually installed the tankless in our house when we built it in 04. The guy who came out spent 16 hours trying to figure the thing out. He, his partner, and myself could get no help from the tech support. Sometimes they would just hang up on us. They wanted to know about the exhaust "tubing" or else they wouldn't help us.
Total, we were without hot water for a month. Finally the original plumbing company...one who installed the piece of junk in the first place...gave us a discount on a TAKAGI. Come to find out, when they first began installing Tankless w heaters, they started out with Bosch. Said they only installed 5 of them then quit because the product was so shotty, had lots of trouble just getting them installed...and the tech support was worst they had ever dealt with.
They have been installing TAKAGI for over 3 years now and really like them...units, tech support and the whole package.
We love the idea of the tankless...our builder just tried to go cheap on our unit with a cheap brand...
WOULD NOT RECOMMEND A BOSCH...EVER!!!!! Additionally, we tried to use Bosch "nail gun". That was also a JOKE...really bad product. Home Depot ended up GIVING us a second one...then after it broke, they discounted us a DEWALT.

[Brian]

Just wanted to let everybody know about this SETS water heater. It is junk!!!!!!!! I paid $700 bucks for one about a year ago. I chose this brand because of its "lifetime warranty". Well as soon as I moved into the new house I built we noticed fluctuations in the water temperature and I can't even fill our whirlpool tub because the water heater shuts off if you open the faucet to more than a trickle. So I called the company to get it fixed since it has a "lifetime warranty" and I find out the place has sold out to another company (Hubbell) and the warranty is worthless. The guy tells me I have the old style flow switch on the heater and I can upgrade to the new style for another $415 and get a refurbished model or just buy a new one with a 15% discount. What a crock of $%^#%$#%$#!!!!!!!!!!! Don't buy a water heater from this company. Hubbell, S.E.T.S. or anything they have to do with!!!!!!!!

[Bill Newbauer]

As the COO of Hubbell Electric Heater Co., let me take this opportunity to explain to people the situation with the SETS tankless water heater. On June 26, 2008 Hubbell Electric Heater Co., a manufacturer of electric water heaters for over 80+ years, purchased the assets of SETS Systems Inc. Although SETS Systems Inc was an innovator in the field, the company lacked the resources and experience necessary to properly manufacture and service a tankless water heater for wide scale distribution. Although they experienced many of the same technical problems other manufacturer's of tankless water heaters experienced at one time or another (temperature fluctuation being the main problem) as stated above they lacked the proper resources to address the problem while serving their customer base, and as a result eventually went out of business.

As an early pioneer in the field, SETS Systems Inc faced a huge hurdle educating consumers to the benefits (and the physical requirements) of an electric whole house tankless water heater and viewed the "Lifetime Warranty" as a way to get consumers "over the hump". As everyone knows, a warranty is only as good as the company behind it, and quite frankly, as a consumer I would view a "Lifetime Warranty" on a relatively new technology for one of the hardest working appliances in the home from a company as young as SETS Systems Inc to be highly suspect. And although I believe the previous owners of SETS Systems Inc had the best intentions, the demands of manufacturing, product development and customer service for a product like this overwhelmed the company and was its eventual undoing.

To be clear, Hubbell Electric Heater Co. did not purchase the corporation SETS Systems Inc, and any and all warranty obligations are the responsibility of SETS Systems Inc, not Hubbell. Hubbell purchased the inventory and assets of the company (which yes, include the phone number and website) and has decided to provide ongoing technical and product support for owners of SETS tankless water heaters. Yes, now you might have to buy a $38 replacement heating element, but these are ongoing maintenance costs that you eventually face with every other heater on the market (tankless or storage). If there are temperature fluctuation issues (not totally unheard of in the tankless market) they are most likely units made before December 31, 2007 which utilized a flow switch design. Although this design was a significant improvement over earlier generation flow switches, the heater in certain situations was prone to temperature fluctuations and clearly a weakness in the product. The answer to this problem is quite simple and highly effective, that is by utilizing a precision flow meter and properly located sensors, the temperature controller can operate the heaters in such a way that they output the precise amount of heat to meet the exact instantaneous demand. This "second generation" control system has significantly reduced the amount of temperature fluctuation throughout the full range of flows and has been incorporated into all SETS heaters since that time, and overall has been very well received by customers.

Hubbell has made an attempt (undoubtedly it will not satisfy everyone) to assist owners of SETS Systems Inc heaters by offering a discount on replacement parts. For customers unhappy with temperature fluctuations of earlier generation flow switch design heaters, Hubbell is also providing the ability to have their unit completely refurbished (all new heating elements, new temperature controller, new digital numeric display, and replace the flow switch with a flow meter) for $415 which includes shipping. Although these offers are not the warranties that customers initially purchased, Hubbell believes that these are fair and reasonable prices for the services offered and are extended to SETS owners in an effort to rebuild the brand and customer support.

Now, let me explain (for anyone still reading that is) what Hubbell is doing to improve the product. We have only just completed the set up of the production line, and have already made or are in the process of making major design improvements. The heating element design has been significantly improved by changing from copper to Incoloy 800 sheathing on the tubulars, thus improving its corrosion resistance and increasing its temperature operating range. Additionally, the cold section of the heating element has been significantly extended to ensure that the heated section is always immersed in water, and finally the heating element itself will be manufactured by the world leader in heating element fabrication, Chromalox (no more off shore low quality manufacturing). The accuracy of the temperature sensor has been improved by a factor of 15, thereby further improving the units ability to maintain accurate output temperature. The heating chamber is being redesigned in a number of ways to improve flow characteristics thereby reducing the pressure drop through the heater, reducing the possibility of trapped air, improving the heat transfer rate through improved flow and finally improving the O-ring groove design to ensure more reliable heating element seating. The temperature control software is being re-written to provide improved diagnostic feedback to the user including indication of heating, indication of modulation, indication of flow, improved heater modulation characteristics, and finally the addition of logic which equalizes wear and tear on all components. These are only some of the improvements planned. As a company that continually innovates and improves, Hubbell will be sure to continue to invest in the product and make ongoing improvements to bring to the consumer the very best technology for high efficiency water heating.

In terms of customer support, Hubbell is committed to helping customers (both SETS Systems Inc customers and Hubbell customers) and is putting in place the personnel necessary to provide the high level of customer service Hubbell provides for its other products. Am I a biased source, well yes, I suppose I am. I know there are people unhappy with the SETS heater as made by SETS Systems Inc, but I also know there are many more people who are satisfied with the product. Having said that, Hubbell is committed to the tankless water heater and will make every effort to improve the product going forward, service our new customers and do our best to support SETS Systems Inc customers. The SETS heater has many features which make it a great option for customers, and Hubbell is fully committed to building upon this design and bringing to the tankless water heater market a reliable and highly efficient source for hot water. Hubbell brings to the table a vast amount of experience in designing and manufacturing all types of electric water heaters, and is confident that in very short order the Hubbell manufactured SETS tankless water heater will be the heater of choice in the industry.

[arvy]

Is there any ratings on how good Kel-Tech Inc and Skye Tankless water heaters are?

[James]

To all Tankless info.

I have a hose in WA and one in SO Cal, This is a trial by fire that your going through I have had Tankless since they first cam out but here is my input for those pondering the buy. American Tankless works better then they claim but not all the units are good out of the box that is just life with low price things. They are good though and hold to there word, that is the electric that i use today after four brands (not to be named). As for the Gas I only swear by Rinnai for gas use mainly because the high volume at GMP to heat, and the safety measures done i.e. stainless steel venting etc. etc... I am in the armed services and use to getting the shaft but not when it comes to customer service or standing behind what you say. I enjoyed the blogs and hope to read more. but off to the convoys I go hope to get back. My wife is picky so we have gone through quite a few of these and this is my lesson shared to you.

James

[Andy]

To arvy: I can tell you the SKYE unit you mentioned isn’t worth it’s weight in pretty, brushed stainless steel covers. The company has an exceptional history of customer complaints and their product offerings have frankly never been fit for human use. That is however assuming you were actually able to get the company to ship you the heater you paid for. I wouldn’t recommend their products to anyone.

[ron]

Well thanks to all who have made comments especially to the coo of hubbell. Now I am really confused as to wether I should switch my 80 gal hot water tank for tankless.I built my own 2100 sg ft log house only with the help of my wife ,15 yr stepson,17 yr step daughter so I am able to do the install my self.No labor only material.So having said that I really don,t know what product is mroe reliable.It sounds to me like I meed to install acouple bypass valves an keep my tank in the loop just incase the tankless fails which it no doubt will by the comments. Now i,m off to put all the names in a hat and pick one.If you are the lucky/unlucky one no doubt you will hear frome me in the near future. Again thanks for the confusion;;;;;;; Ron

[ron]

Well thanks to all who have made comments especially to the coo of hubbell. Now I am really confused as to wether I should switch my 80 gal hot water tank for tankless.I built my own 2100 sg ft log house only with the help of my wife ,15 yr stepson,17 yr step daughter so I am able to do the install my self.No labor only material.So having said that I really don,t know what product is mroe reliable.It sounds to me like I meed to install acouple bypass valves an keep my tank in the loop just incase the tankless fails which it no doubt will by the comments. Now i,m off to put all the names in a hat and pick one.If you are the lucky/unlucky one no doubt you will hear frome me in the near future. Again thanks for the confusion;;;;;;; Ron

[Linda]

Well, that's some track record for electric tankless, isn't it? I'm sorry to say that I'm adding my bad time with Bosch also. Our old humongous tank gave out by leaking and to save space in my laundryroom we installed a PowerStar made by Bosch. It's model #45-557701 and was supposed to be for the whole house. It was fantastic for about 3 months and then it started fluctuating and it was flaking off gobs of flakes by the 6th month. These flakes were the calcium in our water that were attaching to the heating element and then exploding off it when the element turned on. It was heard all over the house and sounded louder than popcorn! That junk then started filling our pipelines and showerheads and every other sort of filter on the clothes washer and sink faucets. What a mess. I had no hot water in the kitchen sink --and no flow either until I discovered the little filter that was hidden. I got in touch with the company and they just couldn't figure out what to do, our water was of the hardness of 21 grains and that was from our water company's test. Bosch told us that it wasn't a problem, we didn't have to have a water softener. (We didn't want to buy one because of the space problem and the salt problem.) But, the first unit we bought had 3 heating canisters in it and they had improved it since then to 2 canisters. They offered to send me a new unit and I packed the other one back in the box and sent it back to them for their troubleshooting. (At their expense.)

That unit was installed by a plumber and everything went well for just about 3-4 months again and the same problems started all over again! I again called and talked it all over and they sent me another unit under the same conditions.

My husband was reluctant to install it, saying we'd just have the same problem occuring again and have to flush the pipes out again, etc. (That was about $250.) So I have been enduring the whole mess for months. No dishwasher--it quit draining several months ago, probably from the grease in the cold water! Trying to wash son's grease laden jeans in cold water is a joke! Taking lukewarm showers in the summer isn't so bad, but in cold weather--forget it! I'm tired of heating water in a big pan on the cookstove in order to handwash dishes! I'm going to get them to refund my money--they can have their new one still in the box!!! I'm going to go to a Lowe's or Home Depot and buy a regular 40 gal. electric water heater and get on with my life!!! A year and a half of this nonsense is way too much! I'm still going to have to pay extra for the plumber to clean out the washer and dishwasher and the pipes, and buy new shower heads as the others are ruined--the sides blew out on the plastic when they clogged up and got too much pressure on them.

My thanks to all of you who wrote a comment here to keep others from going through all this stress!

BUYER BEWARE!!--

--while I was researching today I started at the American Tankless page to see what was available nowadays--one big thing you can do to save yourself some grief: notice that the website is anything but professional. It is CHEAP and full of misspellings. That is a good signal to avoid someone like that. I went to Google maps to look up their address since it said some street with a #59 on it. That looked suspicious to me as if it were an apartment, but no,it was a TRAILER PARK!!!!!!!

I'm certainly not going to do business with someone like that--YOU CAN KEEP IT, JUNIOR!!!! I'm sure if they read this they will change their address, or remove it entirely.

[Linda]

To Grant Benson that posted in July 08, is your love of you Stiebel Eltron Tempra 24 still there? Does it still work lovely? Are you in a cold climate? When the ground water gets really cold is it still giving out hot (not lukewarm) water?

I sure wish someone had a good unit! The idea is great and it certainly saves it purchase price within a couple of months--Now if the blamed things just worked like they are supposed to!!!!

[Marcia Patrick]

We put in 2 SEISCO units when we built our house back in 2002. The first one only worked for about 6 months before it started to not work sporadically. I delayed calling a repairman because it would work fine one day only to fail the next. This wasn't a huge deal, because it supplies mainly the laundry room, kitchen and powder room at the front of the house. It is installed in an equipment room off of our garage, so it wasn't easy to check, either. Almost a year after it was installed, it finally failed completely and I called the company (SEISCO) to have someone come out to check it. SEISCO said that we would need to call the plumber who installed it. But no plumber would look at it. We instead had to call an electrician - BUT NONE OF THEM KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT TANKLESS WATER HEATERS!
Finally found an electrician who was moonlighting replacing them. It turned out that the plastic housing had failed at a seam, spewing water over the unit and ruining the "mother board." SEISCO replaced it (at a reduced price because it was out of warranty).
The other unit in the house (that services the baths) never puts out enough flow to supply the tub faucets. No complaint on the showers, though, when it is working. But it goes out periodically and must be reset. We have also had to replace thermocouples and other pieces on it.
I love the concept, but I can't recommend the SEISCO unit. But haven't found one that I could go with to replace it either. If I had the space, I might have put in a regular gas tank heater just to supply my bathtub!

[Eugene]

I replaced a 40 gallon water heater with a Takagi T-M1 tankless water heater over 3 years ago when I remodeled my home and added a large jacuzzi bath tub. I have not had any problems with it. In fact, I have not touched in since I installed it. No issues with water volume either. Can fill bath, take shower and do the dishes at the same time with no loss of hot water.

[Bernie Ricard]

ree night in my one and when i leave, cut the elctric hot water heater at box. Well I,m convinced,Iam more confused than before. I though a tankless would be perfect for me because I only spend two to th

[sonntag]

I bought 2 units 500 ADK1 Tankless hot water heater--- American Heat--- manufactured by the American Tankless Water Heaters. I bought them through Kevin King of Ruffs Dale, PA
Within 2 weeks of installing them they stopped working. Neither the seller nor the manufacturer would stand behind the warrenty. Further more they would not sell replacement parts to either unit. The distributer Kevin King of Ruffs Dale, PA said he did not want to bother with selling replacement parts and the companies customer support said they did not think they would sell them to me.

[Sharon Goldzweig]

I need to purchase a hot water heater. The utility company will install an American 75 gallon tank for the total cost of $1,600. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding American hot water heaters?

[chris]

Is American Tankless still in business? The number I call is disconnected and from the comments listed on this blog it would not suprise me if the company is out of business.

Unfortunately, I purchased three American Tankless 145 HWH in the fall of 2007 and none of them work! I need replacement parts but am beginning to realize that I should scrap the heaters.

[Tom McGuinness]

American Tankless Water Heaters - To all that has these defective thermostats, I found a company that bought this technology and you can get replacement parts from Tanklessone. The parts are 20 dollars each. If anyone has any information about American Tankless and the pieces of junk they sold, as far as recourse please post! Hope this helps!

[Chris]

Hi.

My Sets was installed in early 2006. It stopped working well about 8 months ago. The water gets tepid only and once in a while a blast of scalding-but only for a minute.

We have replaced the heating elements, and the thermometer. The electritian has no clue what could be the problem and says the unit measures that it is working with his gages--but it is not.

Called Sets but they sold the company and are not honoring warrenties. No price break on the parts and 15% discount if I buy a new tank.

Last night my husband asked me to order a new one from the same company who bought Sets.

I searched and found your blog and am thinking that I need to tell him no way and we are going back to an old fashioned tank heater.

Chris

[Becky]

Becky

So many of these comments sound so failiar to the problems I've had with American Tankless. I purchased the model 280 for $800. I had problems with the flow meter from day one, and all of my faucets are so clogged with scale. (Does anyone know if this is from the heater or galvenized pipes?) I also spoke to "Junior" on many occasions (parts were always late) and replaced it many times. It still doesn't work properly, fluctuating from hot to luke warm. One of the three burners never fires up, what a piece of junk. I also upgraded my electrical service to 400amp and installed a whole house water filter. I called American Tankless today to find out all the ph.#'s are disconnected including (Junior's)and upon further investigation the coompany is out of business. Great Warranty hu?
I cut my losses and purchased a Stiebel Tempra 36. I don't have it installed yet, has anyone heard anything about this model? I'm crossing my fingers, what a costly mistake.

[Susan]

In regards to Sets and American Tankless--They have a great sales pitch with no back up. I wish I would have known that the same person was involved with both companies. I really would have given them a piece of my mind. Their customer service stinks. As with the previous gentlemen, with SETS, I was told that I was not in their data base for customer warranty. Totally frustrated I purchased a heater from American Tankless Model 240 in July 2007. I had a couple of issues in the beginning to get the water heater from fluctuating in temp. The issue was partly resolved. We have just learned to live with the variation. Then we began to get grey particles in the bathtub. The element was blowing up. Today, I called to find out that American Tankless went out of business about 8 months ago, and that another company is taking over the business and the warranty is no longer valid. At least they say they are sending out my parts. We will see. If not I surely will let you know the outcome.

You were not kidding when you say green is not easy!!!! That is an understatment. If anyone knows anything about PacWind generators please let me know.

[Jane]

Hmmm, have just read two pages telling me the $3000 plus spent upgrading the house's electrical system to run my C$995 SETS system was not money well spent! We got our first SETS system in 2003 through a Canadian company, and then had problems with it within days, mostly the temperature fluctuation variety, which actually escalated to the point of bubbling, boiling water coming out of the tap sometimes (and other times cold water). The service was not helpful, they did send me a replacement element but nobody in Vancouver knows how to deal with this so installed it myself (afraid I was going to fry in the process with the 100 amp electrical input). This did not solve the problem,SETS was not helpful at all, eventually my Canadian distributor intervened with SETS and they sent me a replacement model (around 2006) and we hummed along "okay" for a few years. okay meaning that we could only fill a bathtub slowly, that the water temperature in showers continued to fluctuate, but at least it was reliably warm (although not safe enough to let my children shower, they have baths). Now, wild temperature fluctuations again, and I am looking for a solution and find--all this negative information.I really appreciate the info from the COO of Hubbell and might consider upgrading with them.
I would appreciate any info on reliability of other (electrical)brands, as I think we are going to be replacing this unit pretty soon.
Especially I am interested in marrying the hot water system to in floor radiant heating, as we are approaching renovating our basement soon.

[Kelly]

What a nightmare. I have a SETS unit that has NEVER worked properly. I went through the same "we don't show any record of you buying the product" even though I bought it directly from them! Sorry, no support for you!!! Then, as other posters noted, I finally found my credit card statement showing the purchase date -- DIRECTLY FROM SETS -- and called them back, only to discover that they are now Hubbell, not SETS anymore. Sorry, no support for you!!! I will never buy anything from SETS/Hubbell, or whatever they refer to themselves as again. I think I', going back to a tank- heater...

[Dominic]

Had a S.E.T.S. and had an absolutly wonderful time taking showers that went from ice cold to so hot I was left wondering how much the medical bills would be, let alone the electricity.

To quote another posting, in part:

1. There is no comparison between the S.E.T.S. and Hubbell Tankless Water Heater. The Hubbell unit has been completely reengineered. It even uses the new Sharkbite adapters for easy installation.
2. No temperature fluctuations during showers, even when other hot water appliances are in use (2 showers, dish washer and washing machine).
3. The new temperature display and adjustment is easy to adjust and the temperature is accurately displayed (to the degree).
4. I also received a discount (over a hundred dollars) for my old broken and useless S.E.T.S. unit, which I returned to Hubbell free of charge (from the Caribbean!!).
5. The new Hubble unit is also completely silent.

In short, S.E.T.S. was trash (both in product and service) - Hubbell took what they needed from the company and made it work - REALLY work - and I have a very content wife to show for it. All said, it was a total of about 3 days (ordering, shipping and installation included) between my wife screaming madly at the shower head (and me as it was my idea to go with S.E.T.S.) and then laughing at it when the Hubbell worked PERFECTLY.

Just call Christopher Zaveruha at Hubbell (see his contact information below) I am certain he will be as happy to hear your S.E.T.S. story (or whatever other company you bought from) as he was to hear mine:
(203) 378-2659 Ext 134
chrisz@hubbellheaters.com

P.S. That S.E.T.S. lifetime warranty - it never existed.

[Christine Adametz]

Boy, am I feeling sick right now. We have two of the American Tankless AH-27s. We needed two because the house is a two-family home - investment of over $1700. Because we're doing most of the work ourselves, the house has taken a while to get up and we just installed our previously-purchased HW heaters this past week and neither of them works. We purchased them in June '08 and Sept '08, but just got them installed. Now I know we'll never recoup our money or get these things to work. I guess the old adage holds true - if seems too good to be true, it's too good to be true.
We've been calling the company a dozen times in the past two days with no callbacks. I have also emailed them, with no results. The person with whom I spoke originally was a guy named Tim Allen - I haven't seen him mentioned here. At any rate, how in the world did you even get through to this company? There are a dozen phone numbers and I get an answering machine with each one. It's disgusting!
UGH. This is a new house, too; we were hoping to move in next month, but without hot water, there's no way we'll be able to. I guess we'll have to purchase one of the other brands to replace them (already!). I wonder if enough of us has had problems, if we could get a class-action suit against the company?

[LLigor]

I, too, purchased an American Tankless Hot Water Heater from that disreputable company in Florida. I have since returned the unit, but have not received any refund.

Does anyone have an idea how I might be able to get them to give me a refund, or am I whistling Dixie. Thanks for your help.

[LLigor]

I recently returned an American Tankless Water Heater to that disreputable company in Florida. I have not received a refund. Does anybody out there know how to get a refund from them? Or, am I just whistling Dixie.

Have copied BBB and Federal Trade Commission. Have I left anyone out?

Would appreciate ANY help....help!!

LL

[Mike]

I had bought a poloma (RHEEM) tankless water heater a few years ago, and it worked good for a little bit, but then it started shutting off while I was taking a shower, I would have to go and turn it back on; it did this off and on for a couple of weeks. So I had sent an email to there service dept. and never still to this day heard back from them.
After a couple of days of not hearing back from them I gave them a call and that was a joke as well. I waited for 10 mins. For somebody to tell me they can’t help me and he will have to send me to a senior tech. so then 15 mins. Later I got to speak with a senior tech. who told me that the flame rods get a carbon build up on them and I WOULD HAVE TO TAKE APART MY WATER HEATER and sand the flame rods with 330 grit sand paper. Well what was I to do so I did it; it worked fine for a few months before it started again.Then all of a sudden it stopped working completely I couldn't even shut it off I called them again, and the wait this time was much longer than before to talk to somebody 40 mins. Later a person got on the phone and told me the exact same thing as before, I will have to get you to a senior tech. well 10 mins. Later he answered told me that it was a sensor and to just blow some air into the unit to clear it of dust and any other particles there may be in there. Well I had asked him if that doesn’t work what would I have to do he said replace the burner so I asked how much that was. He couldn't tell me he had to send me to the parts dept. so 10 mins. Later a woman from parts answered and I asked for a price on the burner for my unit she said that service has to give me a part number, so sent me back to service so I was sick of this game they are playing I just hung up. So I did what he had told me to do, it did absolutely nothing. So I went out and bought a new water heater made by Noritz we will see how this one works out. I would not recommend a poloma or rheem product to anybody unless they like to collect garbage that is worthless.

[Kevin Harrison]

My experience with American Tankless who is a selling front for American Heat. Don't make the mistake I did.
Stay away from both sites and do not purchase from them. I am still trying to get my money back after I returned a defective unit. This has been ongoing for 5 months. Tim Allen at American Tankless will convince you their heater will handle your needs and then after installing a new box, dp70 breakers and even had the power company set a new transformer it would not heat 65 degree water for more than a few minutes. I spoke with service at the parent company and they confirmed the unit was not going to fit my needs even though the site indicated it was more than adequate.
I got all the return authorizations and followed processes to the letter under the 45 day money back guarantee. Tim Allen just just keeps saying it will be refunded in the next few days.. But it never happens. I spoke with the BBB in Arizona where they are located and they have many complaints against them there and in Florida where American Heat is located. The parent company said they can't do anything to help. Tim Allen is a deceitful and dishonest person who obviously knows how to manipulate money out of people with a product that is flashy but doesn't work. I know I will never see my money back.

[Kent on Hilton Head Island]

In 2004 when my wife and I redid this tiny efficiency condo at the beach we decided to use the space designed for a massive tanked electric hot water heater as the space for a stacked washer/dryer combo. This meant going with a tankless hot water heater.

Our contractor selected SETS. We lived through the same problems as described in detail above.

When I read Dominic's May 11th posting about Hubbell, I decided to try contacting Chris Zaveruha.

WOW! What a great response! An immediate email dialogue with Chris lead to a purchase of a replacement Hubbell unit (at a very good price). It arrived in three days. It fit exactly where the comparable model SETS unit was originally installed. All wiring and connections were the same except for the new-style pipe connectors which my plumber said were much better and easier.

It has been three weeks. We set the new Hubbell unit to 43C and totally forgot it.

It is INVISIBLE AND TOTALLY TRANSPARENT. It works perfectly, silently, and I don't give it a thought.

Our space is so small we could not have a washer/dryer and a tanked hot water heater. With the Hubbell we have our washer/dryer and plenty of hot water.

My wife just said, "Be sure and tell them that the water is always the same temperature."

[Deborah Kay]

I am getting ready to purchase a propane non electrical tankless water heater from Bosch. It is mounted on the outside and the model number is GWH 425 HNO Does anyone have any data on this unit they can share.

[Alice La Pierre]

I work in the energy efficiency field in government, and have the following comments about tankless water heaters, and water heater maintenance in general.

1. Gas-fired tankless units require larger gas piping to serve the high Btu burners, so factor this into the cost of a new system.

2. They also require larger pipes to provide enough flow to trigger the sensor to kick the burner on -- another cost to factor in.

3. Even the natural gas-fired units require electricity to power the sensors, so you will need to run electrical conduit to your gas tankless water heater.

4. Overall, tankless units waste more water: there is water sitting in the pipes -- when the shower is turned on, the cold water in the pipes must be pushed through first. The larger the pipes, the more water is wasted. If the home has low flow showerheads (required in many states by code) then the water is actually moving more slowly through the pipes, so it may take longer for the sensor to trip on. When the sensor trips on (must be a continuous flow for a few seconds to kick in), then the heated water makes its way to the showerhead, and the first person gets a comfortable shower. The number of gallons wasted will vary by system, since the pipe runs are different in every home or condo.

5. Cold water "sandwich": When the second person comes along for a shower, there is usually enough hot water in the pipe to allow some wetting and soaping up, before the cold water douses the person in the shower. This cold water is the result of the flow of water having stopped after the first shower: the sensor turns the burner off when the flow stops, to avoid burning out the unit. When the water is turned back on, it takes a period of time before the sensor turns back on to fire up the unit. While this may seem a mild inconvenience, it can be dangerous if the person in the shower is shocked by cold water, or scalded as a result of the temperature fluctuations.

6. Stand-by power, or "phantom" power losses: The sensors in tankless units are currently not regulated by many states' energy codes for their stand-by power consumption. The wattage from these can be significant, as much as leaving a 75-watt lightbulb on 24-hours a day, 365 days a year. It's energy you pay for, but get nothing useful in return.

7. Tankless units must be de-scaled annually to remove calcium carbonate and other minerals from the heat exchanger unit; costs are typically around $100. It may be difficult to find a company that knows how to maintain the unit.

8. Models on the market seem to still be evolving; the market has not yet matured enough to take care of these problems.

Please note that is possible to have "instant" hot water from your existing tanked water heater, provided it can be located centrally (not remotely) from your main fixtures: showers/tubs, and sinks. Using the smallest diameter pipe allowed by code, and a system of "structured plumbing" (instead of traditional trunk-branch-twig, a manifold located near the tank that has short runs of narrow diameter piping directly to each shower and sink) will result in much less water waste, and hot water delivered nearly instantly at the tap, which is what most people want, and assume they will be getting with a tankless unit.

It is recommended that all water heaters be turned DOWN to about 120 F. to avoid scalding, but no lower, to avoid bacterial growth in the tank. A good rule of thumb is, if you need to mix cold water into the hot water at the tap or showerhead, then the water heater is set too high. Turning it down to 120 F. will prevent scalding, and is especially helpful where children or older family members are at risk. Additionally, most manufacturers will consider the warranty void if the tank is turned up beyond 130 F.

All water heaters should be maintained, like any other investment. An annual flushing (connect a garden hose to the spigot at the bottom of the tank, and flush the water outdoors or down a drain) until the water runs clear will keep sediments from building up on the bottom of the tank, which can cause problems, including blocked aerators and showerheads, and premature rusting of the tank. Annual flushing of a fairly new tank (less than 5 years old) can extend the life of the tank significantly, well beyond the expected life of the tank.

Another maintenance issue is the periodic replacement of the "dip tube", the internal pipe attached to the cold water inlet that delivers cold water to the bottom of the tank where it is heated, and replacement of the "sacrificial anode", a metal rod designed to deteriorate, thus sparing the lining of the water heater tank. These should be checked every 3-5 years, depending on local water conditions. Parts are inexpensive, around $40 each, but service may be costly. A skilled homeowner can replace both of these, as long as the incoming water valve is turned off first.

[Harvey Hocker]

I too have a total electric home and switched over to an electric tankless water heater over two years ago. The unit I purchased was the Stiebel-Eltron Tempra 24. This unit worked great for 8 months when I started having problems with the flow sensors. Received replacement sensors from Stieble-Eltron USA, installed and unit worked for two days before sensors started failing again. Found out that due to hard water, the heating elements were flaking hard water deposits into the tanks and these deposits were backing into the flow sensors. Due to design of the Tempra water heaters this has become a continuing problem, not completely resolved to this date. Yesterday the master control board failed and will not control water heating on the master tank of the water heater. Will try to get another circuit board to fix but obviously Stiebel-Eltron does not have a reliable product either. Was hoping to purchase a Seisco unit but obviously It and other manufacturer's products are not what they have been advertised to be from comments on this blog. MY ADVICE IS, DO NOT BUY STIEBEL-ELTRON. The Tempra tankless water heaters do not seem to be robust. From all the units I have looked at, the Seisco's seemed to be the better built. THIS EVIDENTLY IS NOT THE CASE. GOOD LUCK TO ANYONE FINDING AN ELECTRIC TANKLESS WATER HEATER THAT WILL WORK RELIABLY FOR YEARS TO COME AND BEING ABLE TO REDILY PURCHASE REPAIR PARTS.