Toyota Sienna buying challenges - take a seat

My parents were in the market for a new minivan to replace their aging Nissan Maxima. One of the models they were considering was a Toyota Sienna. After going through the details on the company Web site, it looked like a Sienna XLE would be perfect. You could add leather, a sunroof, and—according to the Toyota Web site—a memory driver's seat.

That memory seat is important to my parents; my mom is a foot shorter than my dad, and they love having the feature on their 1999 Chrysler Town and Country Limited. Configuring the Sienna in this way works out to be considerably cheaper than buying a $36,000 Sienna Limited. Honda forces you into a $40,000 Odyssey Touring to get the memory seat, and Chrysler requires a Town and Country Limited that stickers at $37,000 (with a sunroof to equal the configuration).

Then it came time to buy the Sienna. On its Web site, Toyota says the Sienna is available with a "Convenience Package," which includes the memory seats. Various online price guides and a bimonthly pricing reference book that we have in the office list an option package "SR" with that feature. So, add the value package #1 (which gets you leather) and either one of these packages, and we're in business. 

Not so fast. Go to the Toyota "build your own" section of the Web site and you find that the configurations available match those limited configurations ordered and stocked by your local Toyota distribution network. None of those configurations had the memory seat package, and most had a DVD player—something my parents didn't want.

Toyota's Web site isn't lacking disclaimers about this. At the bottom of the detailed options page is this basically-ignore-everything-you'll-read-above-about-the-options note:

"Toyota strives to build vehicles to match customer interest and thus they typically are built with popular options and option packages. Not all options/packages are available separately and some may not be available in all regions of the country. If you would prefer a vehicle with no or different options, contact your dealer to check for current availability or the possibility of placing a special order."

So we did what the disclaimer said: we contacted dealers to check on the "possibility of placing a special order." The folks contacted their local dealers while I tried mine.

One dealer told my parents that it was "no problem" and they'd have the van in a few weeks. Another dealer said, "You'll wait eight months to get that van." I had a very helpful salesman at a third dealer search through all of the Sienna XLE's available. He found none with the desired package, a sign to him (confirmed by the sales manager) that it wasn't likely we'd get one. A fourth dealer told me they "could order almost anything Toyota sells," asked for some time to confirm, and then didn't get back to me.

After a week of this, my dad was livid, basically swearing off Toyota. It doesn't really matter that, with incentives, a Sienna Limited works out to be the cheapest way to get a minivan with that memory seat. On the flip side, the dealer who sold him his Chrysler was willing—and able—to special order him a Chrysler with any available option. No hassle, no calling four dealers.

A brief search on Siennaclub.com confirmed that my parents aren't alone in their frustration. Funny thing is, Toyota knows they have a problem. Jim Lentz, the president of Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., in the February 18th issue of Automotive News addressed the discrepancy between various parts of Toyota's Web site: "We create different names for the same thing."

He admitted that Toyota is as guilty as other automakers of stressing out consumers, according to the Automotive News article.

Thing is, Honda doesn't stress out Odyssey buyers; you either buy the trim level that has what you want, or you don't. Chrysler doesn't stress them out either; once you select a trim level, you can pick and choose the options you want.

We'll probably see a redesigned Sienna for 2009, I just hope it includes a redesign of the options structure. In the end, my parents didn't buy anything—the Maxima is still chugging along.

—Tom Mutchler

Discuss Toyota in the Cars forums.

Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires: No worse for wear

Lots of tire life left based on our extended tread-life test.

We’ve had a series of blog reports on our Toyota Sienna following the tread life performance of its run-flat tires.  (See the links below.) Now, at just over 30,000 miles, (30,247 miles to be exact, as shown) we’re impressed with the wear performance of the tires, which are projected to wear out at no less than 54,000 miles—comparable or better than conventional all-season tires.   

For those of you just joining us, we purchased a new 2007 Toyota Sienna XLE AWD with the Dunlop SP Sport 4000 Self-Supporting Technology tires (DSST)—run-flat tires. After the road test was completed, we purchased a new set of Dunlop SP Sport 4000 DSST tires for a tread-life evaluation on our Sienna. The evaluation started at the end of March 2007 and now, one year later, the tires still are trucking on.

To be fair to the tires, we have been checking inflation pressures religiously; checking alignment, rotating the tires, and measuring the average tread depth in tread grooves (four grooves) across the tire’s tread width and at four places around the tire for a total of sixteen test points. In the course of the 30,000 mile test we measured tread depth of the new tires, and then eleven times throughout the test, most at 2,000-mile intervals.   

Some readers/subscribers have griped that nobody checks tires as often as we did and most certainly do not check alignments that often. To that end, we checked the tire’s inflation pressure just about every month, just like you should do. As for wheel alignment, we did check it routinely but never had to readjust the wheel alignment settings at all. And then there were our drivers, a sorted bunch of car enthusiasts, office administrators, and maintenance staff who drove the minivan all those miles. 

Minivans don’t excite many employees here with all the cars that we get to drive at our Auto Test Center, but with the enticement of free fuel, people were fighting over the use of the van, especially for long vacation trips. And so the van has been all over the New England region, and it enjoyed more places than I will ever see, from venturing into the deep-south of the United States to traveling across a wide swath of Canada.

At just over 30,000 miles, the tires still have about 25,000 miles or more left based on the fastest wearing groove, before they are worn-out to the tread wear indicator of 2/32” depth. On average, just two tires were about 50 percent worn out, one was just over 40 percent worn out, and a fourth tire had to be replaced after the previous tread measurement point due to an encounter with a large pot hole.  The tires were wearing faster at their shoulder grooves with a slight cupped shoulder. That continued to be the case at the last measurement, but the wear progressed more evenly across the width of the tire ensuring many more miles of happy travel. 

The bottom line: Our test doesn’t guarantee that you will get the same mileage. As they say, results may vary, as the total tire range depends on how and where you drive. But given the variability of our test with different drivers, roads, and seasons driven, we feel that with proper maintenance you can enjoy a long relationship with your Sienna’s run-flat tires.   

Background
Toyota Sienna all-wheel-drive owners clearly have a beef with the short tread life of the standard run-flat tires and continue to share complaints in letters and Cars forums posts, especially in Tire Talk, the online-subscriber-only tire forum at ConsumerReports.org. We've also covered the frustration of Sienna owners regarding fast-wearing tires here in the Cars blog.

As we’ve said before, most owners were pleased with the overall performance of their AWD Sienna—one of the top-rated models in Consumer Reports tests—but few are satisfied with the run-flat tire tread life, cost of replacement, and limited models from which to choose (two original-equipment suppliers). Some even have psychological fears about not having a spare tire on board.

Many owners have complained that the run-flat tires wear out much quicker than expected or unevenly—often within 15,000 to 20,000 miles. Some owners found themselves facing an aggravating annual tire replacement, costing $700 or more. Toyota finally addressed the issue last year with an extended warranty on 2004 to some 2006 model-year vehicles, mostly addressing the irregular wear condition. Later-model vehicles came with a revised tire intended to eliminate the wear condition.

—Gene Petersen, Jen Stockburger, Ryan Pszczolkowski

Related blog posts:
Update: Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires
Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires wear well for us
Toyota Sienna AWD tires - patience wearing thin
Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty
Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us.
Run-flat tires go flat with our readers       

Research tires with our expanded tools. Discuss in the Cars forums, especially in Tire Talk, the online-subscriber-only tire forum.

Ford breaks out the stylus

Frequently, we have complained about radio and climate controls in recent vehicles we have tested being so small they need a stylus to operate. (Actually, we don't think it's a good idea to try to pick out buttons with a skinny stylus on the road, either.) Such controls are often mounted low on the dashboard, a long reach away, and so it is hard to see and pick out which button you want to hit. Clearly, we aren't fans of these tiny buttons.

Now it seems Ford has taken our snarky complaints literally. Looking at the radio, navigation, and inventory-tracking system in its Transit work van, what we found is a standard stylus slot in the upper right side of the unit. Just slide your fingernail down the side of the radio and pull it out.

The funny thing is, the Transit's simple, round climate-control knobs, as well as the "buttons" on its touch-screen system are all plenty large to hit with your finger. You still don't need a stylus. Go figure.

—Eric Evarts

See the 2008 New York auto show coverage.

Ford Transit - Taxi of tomorrow?

The Ford Transit is a neat idea. At the NY Auto Show, Ford has it decked out in taxicab yellow; I think it looks like a cross between a Ford Fusion, Taurus X, and previous Land Rover Discovery. Senior Director of Consumer Reports Auto Test Division David Champion likens it to a big Honda Element. Also, says Champion, it seemingly "could take the place of an SUV or pickup truck for companies that do deliveries and other light-duty trade work." Plus, he adds, it's very likely that this new Dodge Sprinter-like model could make a tradesperson rethink whether or not they really need the weight (and poor fuel economy) of a full-sized van.

And if Ford uses the diesel engine offered in Europe, it could further boost fuel economy gains, not to mention the urban potential for a hybrid system.

—Mike Quincy

See the 2008 New York auto show coverage.

Where is the VW Microbus?

Back at the 2001 Detroit auto show, we were introduced to the Microbus concept vehicle that recalled the look of the air-cooled classic but with a modern reinvention. It reminded us of what Volkswagen had done with the New Beetle. As it toured the international circuit, it was received with wide acclaim; the VW designers were retro-cool rock stars.

As the fervor faded, I recall the goatee scratching over how to convert such a snub-nosed design into a production vehicle that could meet front crash requirements. No doubt, that would be a challenge. But, with money and reputation on the line, at least I had confidence that the Germans could engineer their way around this road block.

In 2004, Volkswagen issued an encouraging statement that the Microbus was on track for production in 2007, albeit with changes to better address international market opportunities.

We lose by a nose.

But here we are at the 2008 Chicago show with a Dodge Grand Caravan given “Das auto” treatment. Sorry, this one is not straight out of Wolfsburg.

I knew it was rude, but I couldn’t help it. At the press conference, I stared at the abundant front overhang on the latest VW model to bear an unpronounceable name. It… is… huge. The Routan is no Microbus. (Perhaps it should be dubbed the “Rhinoplasty.”)

What happened? Business realities came crashing in. Engineering a Microbus that could meet increasingly stringent safety regulations in the States and abroad was adding significant cost, according to Volkswagen, and thereby reducing its market and profit potential.

The short-term fix in the United States was to partner with Chrysler, a relationship not unlike those VW had struck with other automakers in Europe through the years. From a business standpoint, this arrangement makes a lot of sense. Volkswagen of America was seeing a steady stream of customers outgrow their wagon offerings and want a larger people hauler. The Touareg kept some in the fold, but others fled to competing brands to buy a minivan or larger, three-row SUV.

Within about two years, Chrysler and Volkswagen were able to cost-effectively develop a Grand Caravan variant. Even at the likely modest sales volume, the Routan can be quite profitable. And because it shares the production line with other minivans, the factory can readily adjust to accommodate fluctuations in demand over its life cycle. Low risk, high profit potential, what’s not to love?

The basic unibody structure and glass is shared with the other minivans, leaving the Routan to be distinguished by a unique front end, interior, and suspension tuning. VW passed on the clever Stow N’ Go, instead developing plusher, more comfortable seats. Less is more, as they say.

The Routan strategy is sound, and it is well timed. With the weakened dollar, VW would have had no chance of profiting from importing a German-built minivan. The local manufacturing is a solid hedge against currency fluctuations.

Plus, it’s interesting that VW wants to join the minivan market when two of Detroit’s heavy hitters (GM and Ford) have abandoned it.

I’ve been told the Microbus isn’t off the table, but it will be at least a model generation before it would happen, if ever. Hopefully the Routan proves to be better than the sum of its Mopar parts. Of our Chrysler Town & Country and Grand Caravan test vehicles, we wrote, “Despite some notable new features, though, they haven't risen to the level needed to compete against better models from Japan and South Korea.”

We’ll withhold judgment until we purchase and test one, of course. But I can say with confidence, this is no Microbus.

—Jeff Bartlett

Read our complete coverage of the 2008 Chicago Auto Show.

Update: Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires

The extended tread-life test on CR's Sienna AWD continues.

For those who have been following our saga of run-flat tires on our 2007 Toyota Sienna XLE AWD, we've been raking up the miles faster than you can say "minivans are the best family vehicle EVER!" After hearing many tales of premature wear of the original-equipment Dunlop SP Sport 4000 Self-Supporting Technology tires (DSST)—run-flat tires, in layman terms—we decided to do a long-term test to see for ourselves. After the traditional road test of our Sienna was completed, we purchased a new set of Dunlop SP Sport 4000 DSST tires for a tread-life evaluation. The evaluation started at the end of March, 2007, and is ongoing.

We've been checking inflation pressures religiously; aligning the wheels, rotating the tires, and measuring the average tread depth in no less than 16 test points around each tire at nearly every 2,000 miles. Admittedly, most consumers are not likely to follow our frequent alignment and rotation schedule, but we're giving the tires the best opportunity to wear optimally. So far, the results suggest that there are benefits in taking good care of your tires.

After some long vacations stints around Northeast parts of the United States and Canada, we've accumulated just over 22,000 miles. Our comprehensive tread-wear measurements tell us the tires still have plenty of life left. The tires are at least 32 percent worn out and some are closing in on the 40-percent mark based on the fastest wearing groove. Keep in mind that a tire is legally worn out when any one groove depth is flush to the tread wear indicator of 2/32 inch. Our Sienna's tires are showing more rapid tread loss at the shoulders, which is not uncommon for a radial tire, but we also observed a stepped wear condition to the inboard shoulder rib that started to appear around 19,000 miles. In addition, a cyclical tire whine is becoming very noticeable as the miles have accumulated.

We'll continue our put on the miles to see how the wear proceeds, including the step-wear condition.

—Gene Petersen

Related blog posts:
Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires wear well for us
Toyota Sienna AWD tires - patience wearing thin
Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty
Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us.
Run-flat tires go flat with our readers       

Discuss in the Cars forums, especially in Tire Talk, the online-subscriber-only tire forum.                                                                                                   

Minivan bumper tests show potential impact to your wallet

Bumpers don't bump well on the latest minivans, according to a recent test conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS). The Institute tested six minivans and found that the front and rear bumpers sustained from $5,000 to as much as $8,000 worth of damage in a series of four impacts. The tests included running each bumper directly into a barrier at 6 mph, as well as striking the  corner of each bumper at 3 mph.

Even though it is conducted at a higher speed, the flat barrier test should be easier to pass, according to IIHS, because the impact is spread over the full length of the bumper. Nevertheless, in the rear full-width test, the tailgate was bent and had to be replaced on both the Nissan Quest and the Toyota Sienna. The tail gates of the Dodge Grand Caravan, Honda Odyssey,and Kia Sedona had more minor damage and could be repaired.  The Chevrolet Uplander did not sustain damage in this test. The Quest also fared poorly in the front full-width test, the only minivan to sustain damage to its hood in that test.

In the corner tests, all the minivans, except the Chevrolet Uplander and the Toyota Sienna, sustained damage to their headlights—expensive assemblies to repair.

The Nissan Quest sustained the most damage, overall, a total of $8,102 in the four tests. The Honda Odyssey performed the best, with $5,258 in damage.

Vehicle repair costs

• $5,258     Honda Odyssey 
• $5,495     Dodge Grand Caravan
• $5,726     Toyota Sienna
• $5,799     Chevrolet Uplander
• $6,525     Kia Sedona
• $8,102     Nissan Quest

None of the minivans are among the worst performers the Institute has subjected to its bumper tests. On average, the minivans' bumpers ride about an inch higher than those of passenger cars, so they're less likely to underride the bumpers of other cars than smaller cars are.

These tests don't indicate a safety problem with the minivans, but they do reveal how minor parking lot impacts can hit consumers in the pocketbook.

—Eric Evarts

See how vehicles performance IIHS crash tests, by choosing from over 200 videos.

Run-flat tires do have their advantages (and fans)

We received many responses to our story on the pros and cons of run-flat tires.

People often indicated that we'd missed the mark and that, in their opinion, the safety benefits of run-flat tires certainly did not outweigh the problems. Our reader/subscriber letters agreed that run-flats have issues:

• Difficult to find replacements in certain areas
• Limited number of replacement models
• Inability to repair run-flats
• High replacement costs

Some even said that these issues were greater concerns than most were willing to live with -- even with extended the mobility run-flats offer. However, after suffering a flat this past Thanksgiving eve, I'm still convinced that run-flats do, indeed, offer a safety benefit.

Let me explain.

Much of the pre-Thanksgiving traffic was in full swing, as many businesses closed on time (if not early) to allow their employees to get home early. I'd signed out our Sienna AWD minivan (equipped with run-flat tires) for the long holiday weekend to travel to Vermont with my family and to add miles to the tires for our ongoing long-term wear evaluation. I picked up my children from daycare—two kids ages three and eight—and put them in their child seats. The van was also full of all the stuff I needed for the weekend: cocktail party supplies; a movie screen for entertaining the children during the party; folding chairs that I borrowed for additional seating on Thanksgiving and for the party; and a mix of food and beverages... You get the picture.

As we're traveling on a rural—and particularly narrow—Connecticut road, we came up over a knoll to find an approaching pickup towing a trailer and taking a bit more than its fair share of the road. I'm somewhat forced to go a bit farther to the shoulder than I normally drive and end up hitting something (I'm not sure if it was simply a pothole or a rock) rather hard. I hadn't gone fifty yards when the Sienna's tire-pressure monitoring system lights up—I knew I had a flat.

Well, let me just tell you if I had been driving on standard, non-run-flat tires and needed to make a tire change, I'm fairly sure that I would not have been able to do it safely in the location I was in without putting my children, myself, and the Sienna in serious danger. You see, the same knoll that prevented the approaching pickup from seeing me would have prevented anyone from seeing my tire-flattened Sienna as well. Thinking back, I'm fairly sure I would have sacrificed the wheel and would have simply driven on the flat tire until I could have gotten out of that location.

But...as luck would have it, I quickly and almost joyously remembered: THE SIENNA HAS RUN-FLATS! Not only would I be able to safely drive myself and my family home (albeit a bit slower), I wouldn't be standing in the middle of the road unloading my children, food, drinks, movie screen, and chairs in order to change a tire.

A day later I drove—carefully, mind you—on that same tire without any pressure in it to a location where I could get the flat changed.

Admittedly, before this all happened, I could have only envisioned a variety of scenarios where run-flats would have been beneficial in the event of a flat -- a busy highway, an uneven shoulder where jacking a car could be dangerous, or in very poor or cold weather. Little did I realize they'd be my saving grace on such a dark Thanksgiving eve with kids and a load of stuff on a narrow country road in Connecticut.

—Jennifer Stockburger

Share your experiences in the Comments below, or in our Cars forums.

Related blog posts:
Update: Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires
Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires wear well for us
Toyota Sienna AWD tires - patience wearing thin
Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty
Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us.
Run-flat tires go flat with our readers   

Claim check: Chrysler Town & Country, the Jenga mobile

Sometimes car advertising is a literal balancing act. Decades ago Lincoln showed a diamond cutter performing his craft in the back seat. More recently, Lexus famously balanced a pyramid of champagne glasses on the hood of a running (but not moving) LS.

Now Chrysler shows kids playing Jenga in the back of a Town & Country minivan to advertise its "smooth ride" and flexibility of the Swivel n' Go seating. But can you really play Jenga in a moving minivan? Off to the Consumer Reports test track to find out!

--Tom “The Driver” Mutchler

Just In: Chrysler Minivans

Like many Americans my age (mid-30s), my family's Chrysler minivan was a household fixture while growing up. For years, the company that invented and popularized the modern minivan (hold your comments about VWs, Corvair Corvan/Greenbriers, and Stout Scarabs, please) also ruled that market with the best product. My parents owned three: a 1988 Dodge Caravan LE, a 1994 Plymouth Grand Voyager, and a 1999 Chrysler Town & Country Limited that they still own. Excluding several transmission problems with the '94, the vans have served them well. And now as empty nesters, they still enjoy sitting up high in the comfy T&C.

But when I bought a minivan to support my weekend whitewater kayaking exploits, a Chrysler didn't make my list. Why not? After years of smaller minivans, Honda and Toyota finally figured out full-sized models with their Odyssey and Sienna, respectively. These vans offered modern, powerful, more-fuel-efficient drivetrains, well-finished interiors, modern safety equipment, and better reliability.

Meanwhile, Chrysler's minivans fell behind the curve: the last Grand Caravan we tested in 2005 lacked a smooth, modern multi-valve V6 and retained an antiquated four-speed automatic transmission. Interior fit and finish and seat comfort were so-so. Stability control was obvious by its absence, and reliability waxed and waned. Sure, the Stow 'n Go seats are slick (I'm stuck with the Odyssey's second-row seat permanently parked in my basement) and there were usually big incentives on all domestic models, but that wasn't quite enough.

Chrysler is trying to retain its sales lead and be more competitive to ensure it stays on top with their 2008 versions. Minivans are a big deal to Chrysler. Despite the overt shortcomings of the old vans, the company still sells around 400,000 a year. (Toyota sells about 160,000 Siennas.) But at the same time, the minivan market is contracting. Unlike my parents, many minivan owners moved onto SUVs (which look more rugged and less suburban even though the streets of suburbia are full of them) or back to sedans.

Look inside the sliding doors
With the 2008 redesign, all Caravans are now "Grand." The short-wheelbase model is gone, leaving Kia/Hyundai alone in that segment. The AWD option disappeared in 2005 due to floor pan modifications to accommodate Stow 'n Go and low take rates; only the Sienna currently offers AWD.

Beyond these fringe omissions, the new Chrysler vans cover the mechanical basics needed to play next to the Sienna and Odyssey:

• An available modern, overhead-cam 4.0-liter V6 (which considerably improved the freshened Pacifica we tested) along with the carryover 3.3-liter and 3.8-liter V6s.
• The segment's first six-speed automatic (with both the 4.0-liter and the 3.8-liter engines).
• A full slate of air bags and standard stability control. (Among competitors, only the Nissan Quest lacks standard ESC.)

But to further lure buyers back, the Chrysler products offer lots and lots of interior features, many of which are unique in the minivan segment:

• "Swivel 'n Go" second-row seats that rotate around to face the back row in a club seating arrangement, complete with a removable table in between
• A hard drive in the sound system that can store music or pictures. (You load it through a USB port, so you don't need to play a CD to record music.)
• A backup camera that doesn't require purchasing a navigation system.
• Nifty interior lighting that, among other things, surrounds the overhead console in a soft glow.
• Lots and lots of storage, including a clever multi-level center console that slides back to the second-row seats, under-floor storage compartments, and a molded door-side bin for an umbrella.

We bought two 2008 Chrysler vans to test: a Dodge Grand Caravan SXT with the 3.8-liter V6 and a Chrysler Town & Country Limited with the 4.0-liter. While they compete strongly on the specification sheet, we'll see how they stack up against the quietness, power, and ride of the Sienna, the spry handling of the Odyssey, and the value of the Kia Sedona/Hyundai Entourage.

A First Look is scheduled for October, offering our initial impressions as these minivans undergo testing for a future report.

--Tom Mutchler

Loading up the moving (mini)van

It finally got to the point where enough work had been done to my recently purchased house (a fixer-upper, mid-century-modern ranch seemingly inspired the movie "The Money Pit"), so that my wife and I could move in. We hired a moving truck for the big things and decided to move the rest between her '05 Honda Odyssey and a borrowed minivan from work. Eight loads later over three days, we were moved--almost to tears by the effort. But, we were moved all the same.

Unlike many minivan buyers, we use our Odyssey to haul more cargo (short whitewater kayaks and bikes) than kids. Using the vans to move gave us a chance to test their mettle for moving even more stuff. Below are the lessons and insights gleaned from our experience:

Toyota Sienna: While most current minivans have a third-row seat that conveniently stows flat into the floor, you're often still left with trying to find a place to leave the second-row seats once you yank them out. The Sienna and Odyssey are no exception. I find the Sienna's seats to be somewhat more fiddly to remove than those in my Odyssey; lining them up with the mounting slots is more critical and I'd prefer a latch rather than a strap to release them from the floor. It also helps to power the front seats far forward, and make sure the headrests are fully lowered. Removing the seats gives you a big flat floor and lots of potential--until I was rear-ended in a minor accident.

Nissan Quest: I went back to the track and replaced the slightly-dented Sienna with our Quest. (Tough life, right?) The Quest's second-row seats fold flat into the floor, but working out the sequence of motions takes a bit of practice. Still, it was nice to not have to worry about finding a place to leave the seats.

While you gain convenience with the Quest's flat-folding seats, you lose out on having a flat floor. The surface created by the folded seats slopes upwards toward the front of the van, and there's a deep recess between them. Bedside table legs liked to get stuck between the seats, a hassle when you try to slide them out. The sloping rear hatch also reduces the cargo area; you need to be careful to have everything far enough inside before shutting the door. And that ultra-slow power-operated door... I probably spent a full hour total watching it creep open and shut.

Honda Odyssey: Like the Sienna, we needed to find a place to stash the Odyssey's second-row seats. (The tiny third-place center seat can fit in the "lazy Susan" under the floor, if the storage unit there is removed.) The seats are somewhat less fiddly to remove than the Sienna's, but you need to make sure the head rests are all the way down before trying to remove or install the seat. Taking out the seats left us with a flat floor, but the plastic moldings that surround the seat brackets can impede sliding things in and out. (I damaged one earlier while moving our treadmill; the molding got caught and snapped out of the floor.)

I didn't even try to take CR's tested Chevrolet Uplander. Why not? The second-row seats don't come out because they're equipped with side torso air bags. (The Uplander doesn't have curtain air bags, unlike most other minivans.) Beyond that, the third-row seat doesn't fold flat into the floor. There's a chintzy plastic bin/organizer behind the seat that makes for a level surface when you fold the seat down, but it takes up space. Worse, stuff can fall into the crevices between the sides of the organizer and the walls of the van. And I'm not alone in preferring other vans.

Lessons learned in moving? Don't be lazy or cheap. Pack up all of your stuff into boxes and load it onto the moving truck when the movers are there to help. One big trip is better than eight little ones. Beyond that, it's too bad we didn't have a Dodge Grand Caravan around: while the current version is otherwise behind the minivan curve, Chrysler has a great idea with their Stow 'n Go seats. Unfortunately, they seemed to contribute to the number of interior rattles in our 2005 test model and made the rear seats thin and less comfortable. (We'll see how the next iteration works in the redesigned 2008 Caravan.)

As for us, boxes cover the floor of the house. We hope to clear enough space to park a car in the garage before it snows. And the seats are back in our Odyssey, until we go to IKEA next weekend...

--Tom Mutchler

Chevrolet Uplander and owner (dis)satisfaction

Driving to the Consumer Reports offices in our Chevrolet Uplander minivan recently, I found myself filled with a new respect and admiration for our subscribers. They are a wise and insightful bunch.

Our Annual Car-owner Satisfaction survey conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center drew responses on a record 400,000 vehicles this year. Subscribers who reported on their own Uplanders voted it the least satisfying model; only 36 percent of them said they would definitely get it again.

I'd have to chime in that it's the least satisfying test vehicle I've driven since joining the magazine over a year ago.

It's not that getting behind the wheel of the Uplander is necessarily a life-endangering move or one sure to leave you by the side of the road; it just isn't a very happy place to be. Inside, it looks and feels cheesy, with uncomfortable seats, cheap-looking materials, and more rattles than a day-care center.

As I floated and wallowed along on my way to work, I was taken by how the Uplander maintains a casual relationship at best with the road. It doesn't want to get too involved. With every expansion crack, the Uplander slowly rises up, and then settles back down, never staying level. Yet when it hits a pothole, the body shudders with the harshness of an old British sports car. The engineers have done a remarkable job of combining the handling characteristics of a wooden Chris Craft runabout with the ride comfort of a 40-year-old MG roadster--either one of which I would rather take to work.

I think it's time to put this ancient design out to pasture. With the introduction of the Saturn Outlook and GMC Acadia people haulers, there is less reason than ever for General Motors to keep building the Uplander. Consumer Reports has recently purchased an Outlook for testing, and we're impressed so far. (A first look will be posted at ConsumerReports.org soon.)
   
GM is phasing out its minivans, but not fast enough. Today would be good; the General needs to keep all the customers it can. 

--Jim Travers

Toyota Sienna AWD tires - patience wearing thin

Owners of the all-wheel drive (AWD) Toyota Sienna often share complaints with us in the recently expanded Cars forums, especially in Tire Talk, the online-subscriber-only tire forum page at ConsumerReports.org. We've also covered the frustration of Sienna owners regarding fast-wearing tires here in the Cars blog: "Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty" and "Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us."

While most owners were pleased with the overall performance of their AWD Sienna—one of the top-rated models in Consumer Reports tests—few have had good things to say about the standard run-flat tires. 

The run-flat tires supplied by Bridgestone and Dunlop provide extended zero-pressure driving for no more than 100 miles and at speeds of no higher than 55 mph--theoretically enough distance to get to a service point to have the tire repaired or replaced. Some owners were unaware of their van being equipped with these tires and were alarmed at not having a spare tire, despite the run-flat capability (Toyota doesn't provide a spare.) Many owners found that the run-flat tires wore out much quicker than expected or unevenly, often within 15,000 to 20,000 miles. Some owners found themselves facing an aggravating annual replacement, costing around $700 or more. Toyota finally addressed the issue last year with an extended warranty on 2004 to some 2006 model-year vehicles, mostly addressing the irregular wear condition. Later-model vehicles came with a revised tire intended to eliminate the fast-wearing condition. 

To find out for ourselves, we purchased a new 2007 Toyota Sienna XLE AWD shod with the Dunlop SP Sport 4000 Self-Supporting Technology tires (DSST)--jargon for run-flat tires. You can see a vehicle road test report on this vehicle and the front wheel drive Sienna in the June issue of Consumer Reports and on ConsumerReports.org soon.

We found a nice little Tire Information booklet in our van for the run-flat tires, describing how they work and should be maintained. Interestingly, the booklet states: "Tread life of AWD Sienna's run-flat tires may be as low as 15,000-20,000 miles and may be as high as 40,000 miles."

We're going keep our AWD Sienna for a long-term evaluation to see what we get in terms of wear mileage and if the changes the tire manufacturer made to the tires have helped eliminate its propensity to wear unevenly. We're aiming to run the vehicle to the point of tire replacement and will share with you along the way how the tires are wearing.  We hope to start the evaluation in the next couple of weeks.   

—Gene Petersen

Related blog posts:
Update: Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires
Toyota Sienna AWD run-flat tires wear well for us
Toyota Sienna AWD tires - patience wearing thin
Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty
Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us.
Run-flat tires go flat with our readers  

Clamping down on our Sienna

When you buy almost 90 cars a year, you're going to encounter some odd quality control issues. For example, we mentioned the Saturn Aura with the Chevrolet key in an earlier blog. That was a silly goof, but one that didn't really impact the car's operation. The Chrysler Sebring that didn't want to start on the first try was more serious, or at least seriously annoying.

Our latest weird sample defect was found on our 2007 Toyota Sienna XLE.  While the van was up on our lift being fitted for our fuel metering equipment, we found that one of the hoses to the rear heater was clamped off near the firewall with a nicely modified set of vise-grips. (Like with the Sebring, it didn't happen here at the track.)

No one is quite sure what happened. Toyota says they don't use tools like that on the assembly line. Since technicians at the dealers own their own tools, they'd probably notice that one went missing. Plus why would the heater hose have to be clamped on a new van? After all, the heater works fine and there aren't any leaks.

Happily, there probably aren't enough custom-modified vise-grips for this to happen to many other Siennas...

--Tom Mutchler 

Role reversal at Chrysler

Just about anybody in the car business remembers when every generation Chrysler minivan had a surprise or two up its sleeve. In December, 1999, I attended the press introduction in Arizona and the cool feature was the optional power rear gate. In 1995, the previous generation was the first minivan that instituted sliding doors on each side. So where are the 2007 surprises? Okay, the swiveling captain chairs option is new to a minivan, but has existed for years in full-size conversion vans. In what clearly seems as a role reversal, Chrysler is now beginning to adapt other manufacturers' features. The retractable wide-angle interior mirror was first introduced on the Ford Windstar in 1994. The retractable side windows debuted on the 2000 Mazda MPV. The sliding console arrived in the 2004 Toyota Sienna. All of these features were shown in yesterday's press conference. Have the folks at Chrysler run out of ideas? To be fair, Chrysler is offering the first six-speed automatic in the segment, but do customers really care if they have a five- or six-speed as long as it's smooth and responsive?

Copying a good thing from other manufacturers is actually a good thing that ultimately benefits more consumers but is that an indication that Chrysler is no longer the inexhaustible fountain of new ideas?

--Gabe Shenhar

Chrysler’s new minivans: Just loafing along?

Chrysler unveiled its new minivans today. The conference theme was that the company has the right “recipe” for the best minivan. To bolster the theme, Chrysler used plenty of bread imagry and brought in television chef Bobby Flay, who proceeded to weave food and automotive one-liners while mixing a mango salsa and chocolate gnosh. Imagine a mango minivan or a Grand Gnosh.

Obviously, the company hopes they can make a ton of bread selling lots of Grand Caravans and Town & Countries. But to usurp the perennially top-rated Honda Odyssey and Toyota Sienna, these new vans must be more like sweat bread than sour dough.

I found the Detroit Free Press article on the new models a bit humorous, though, as the writer suggests that the new design “…gives the classic vehicle a sexy makeover…” Ahem, using the words “sexy” and “minivan” in the same sentence may be enough to stop the earth’s rotation. As I looked over the new vehicles, I couldn’t find how they were any more (or less) “sexier” than any other minivan. Perhaps if Chrysler offered a shag carpeting or pumped in endless tracks from Barry White, they’d corner the “sexy minivan” market.

Anyway, excuse me as I borrow from Chrysler’s bread theme: The automaker is probably hoping to attract an upper-crust following for its products. And I worry that the company kneads this van to succeed, or else it could become toast. (Make your own rimshot sound here).

--Mike Quincy

Toyota extends run-flat tire warranty

Since posting “Toyota Sienna Run-flat Tires? Spare Us,” we have received a letter from Toyota, sent to 2004 through 2006 Toyota Sienna AWD owners that offers a short-term remedy to the reported tire-wear issue:

"Toyota now has supplemental tire warranty coverage offered for a period of 3 years or 36,000 miles from the date the vehicle was first used. Uneven or pre-mature tire wear is being covered and is limited to vehicles equipped with the Dunlop SP Sport 4000 DSST and Bridgestone B380 FRT, both runflat tire models in the P225/60R17 size.

What you should do if you have or had this condition: Contact your Toyota Dealer or Toyota's Customer Experience Center at 1-888-270-9371."

If you previously paid for replacement tires for this condition, Toyota may process your claim. Owners of effected vehicles should also be receiving a letter to describe the conditions of the warranty.

--Gene Petersen

Toyota Sienna run-flat tires? Spare us.

If you subscribe to ConsumerReports.org, you can ask advice on tires under Tire Talk where our tire experts can help you make a good choice on your next set of tires. While questions on this forum cover all types of tires for cars and trucks, we rarely see a steady stream centered one car or tire model--in this case, the Toyota Sienna minivan and its original equipment tires.

Specifically, many subscribers have written to us about the all-wheel-drive models that come standard with 17-inch run-flat tires. The problem seems to be that these fast-wearing tires typically last no more than 18,000 to 20,000 miles. For some owners, that’s a yearly tire purchase for their Siennas. And these tires aren’t cheap to replace, typically costing over $1,000 for a set of four according to many of our subscribers. Replacement choices are limited to the original equipment model, supplied by Bridgestone and Dunlop. Both seem to wear out rapidly. The double whammy of frequently replacing tires and paying a bundle to do so is irking owners.

The two tire suppliers know of the problem. Bridgestone has at least pro-rated their original equipment tires for some owners. Many upset owners say the Toyota dealers are also well aware of the problem. We’d bet that that subject never comes up during the selling process of a new Sienna. Owners are frustrated by the lack of action taken by their dealers and the Toyota Motor Company. Even CR’s letter to Toyota has resulted in silence. Oddly, Toyota now offers a spare tire kit that takes up one of the rear seats and is being sold to people who elect to buy conventional tires to replace those expensive and fast-wearing run-flats. Our local Toyota dealer estimated a cost of $900 for the complete kit (individual parts are sold separately) and cautioned that the third-row seat would have to be removed to fit the temporary spare tire and accessories. One hitch: we are not certain that conventional tires will wear any better. Yes, they are cheaper and more models are available, but you’ll have to weigh that against the cost of buying that optional spare tire kit.

What should you do? Unfortunately, Toyota is being very un-Toyota-like. Sienna owners we communicated with are dissatisfied with the short tire life and the no-comment attitude of the company, which goes against the grain of the high owner satisfaction scores of the Sienna in CR’s Annual Survey. If you’re a Sienna AWD owner, you may want to view our forum to exchange information with others. You can also Google other forum sites for additional information. There’s at least one class-action law suit that we know of. 

One recommendation that we think is a must: check your tires routinely to be sure that they’re inflated correctly (low pressure will wear the tires out even quicker), and replace them when they’re worn out. Some owners try to wring every last mile out of these tires, which perilously sacrifices wet- and winter grip.

Either way, we think Toyota has gone flat satisfying Sienna owners with run-flat tires.

--Gene Petersen