Chrysler and Fiat reliability – Merger of equals?

As Chrysler goes through Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, the troubled U.S. automaker is working on recreating itself through a partnership with Fiat. (Read: “Chrysler enters bankruptcy, merges with Fiat.”) There is much synergy promised from this relationship, such as shared technology and manufacturing capacity, though there are many unknowns—including quality and reliability.

Chrysler reliability
Chrysler Corp. brands rated poorly in the Consumer Reports 2008 Car Reliability Survey, based on our subscribers' experiences with 1.4 million vehicles. Respondents reported on any serious problems they had with their vehicles in 17 trouble spots during the previous 12 months, which allows us to provide predicted-reliability Ratings for new cars. Among the 34 brands ranked for 2009, Jeep is 28th, Dodge 30th, and Chrysler 32nd. (Land Rover takes the bottom spot by a significant margin.)

Clearly, reliability is a challenge for Chrysler. In fact, it is a key factor in why Consumer Reports does not recommend a single vehicle from its three brands, along with often-mediocre test scores. (Read "Detroit report cards.") That said, Chrysler has stated that it is making a concerted effort to improve its vehicle quality and its internal auditing shows marked gains. If these changes are successful it will be reflected in our survey findings, but will take several years to assess its effectiveness and allow vehicle recommendations. We hope the promised improvements come to fruition, for both consumers’ benefit and company health.

Now, the real question is, how will working with Fiat affect quality?

Fiat reliability
For those Americans who recall when Fiat cars were sold here, the brand made a less-than-stellar impression. Looking back at Consumer Reports reliability ratings from the late 1970s, Fiat models typically had more dreaded solid black blobs than most car shoppers would prefer. In particular, the Fiat 128 and 131 received a worse overall reliability rating for several years. Back then, Fiat was sometimes referred to as “Fix It Again, Tony.”

A lot can happen in 30 years, but don’t get your hopes up.

For insights, I turned to the 2008 Brand Reliability Index from Which? Car. The annual Which? Car survey is the largest survey of its kind in the U.K., and it is conducted by a publication that, like Consumer Reports, does not accept advertising and delivers the straight facts from its findings. Its methods differ from Consumer Reports’, and cars can be different from the ones sold here. Still, the results are nonetheless illuminating.

For its reliability study, Which? Car looks at models up to eight years old, thereby often reporting on years of experience with a given vehicle. Their survey tallies serious breakdowns, unscheduled repairs, and minor problems.

When the brands are ranked, Which? Car finds Honda and Toyota at the top of the 2008 reliability list, followed closely by Daihatsu, Lexus, Mazda, and Subaru. This largely mirrors the latest CR predicted reliability ranking, though there Scion was at the top and Mazda placed 12th with CR due to a different model line-up. (CR online subscribers, see how brands compare.)

Among the 38 brands featured in Which? Car, Fiat ranked 35th, followed by Renault, Land Rover, and Chrysler/Dodge.  Jeep is the highest-rated brand from Chrysler, with its 29th place just barely keeping it in the “Poor” category. Fiat, Chrysler, and Dodge are categorized as “Very poor.” In total, Fiat, Chrysler, and Dodge provide similar reliability, and it isn’t good.

There is risk in assessing how a brand performs in one part of the world, versus another, given product line variance, equipment differences, and usage patterns. Point of assembly could also be a factor. That said, the results from the Which? Car survey are illuminating.

Bottom line
When Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler in 1997, it was billed as “merger of equals.” The Chrysler and Fiat deal seems to fit that description better. By the limited indication we have, it looks like reliability may be a challenge. Even in the best of times, it would be difficult for these newly joined companies. Further challenges include factory closings, assembly line changes, and corporate language and cultural differences. We will know for sure only when the products from the new, joint company hit the streets, and our subscribers report on their experience.

We will continue to monitor this fast-moving story, reporting here in the Cars blog and also updating advice and news on the Auto Crisis hub.

–Jeff Bartlett

Comments

[Cale]

Makes me wonder if any more taxpayer money should be risked on Chrysler. Does Fiat think US buyers have such a short attention span that we've forgotten the reliability of those earlier Fiats? Maybe they believe we'll be so smitten with the adorable 500 and impeccable Alfa Romeos not to care.

I wouldn't gamble my money on this merger, whoops... guess I already have.

[charlesP]

In Spain where I lived from 2000 to 2004, Fiat had a mediocre reputation for reliability, as well as performance. They were lower budget cars. It wasn't so very long ago that Fiat was struggling themselves.
Stablemate Alfa Romeo was a bit better, probably because the folks who bought them were more affluent and took better care of them. Alfa's definately had more sex appeal.
Fiat is REALLY making out if they snatch Opel, GM's successful German brand. That would be moving up in the world, and would help the company with market share and profitability.

[Michael]

This is obviously a hand-picked reliability study in the case of Fiat. In any case normally the results of several studies are presented, and not just the one. The UK market for Fiat is a an extremely poor one. Fiat had a 2.6% UK market share in March compared with a 7.6% European share (and 9.2% for the Fiat group). In the UK they are obviuosly biased against Fiat in the first place.

The European Car of The Year award is Europe's most prestigious car award and includes, among its many criteria, reliability factors. No other European car manufacturer has received as many ECOTY awards (the Fiat 500 being the last one for Fiat). Note that this is a hard figure and not a hand-picked "study". Beyond reliability an extremely critical factor for cars in Europe today is emissions (becuase of the numerous eco-taxes in Europe). Fiat have had the lowest CO2 emissions of all European manufacturers for 2 years running:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/03/fiat-keeps-the-low-co-sub-2-sub-crown-for-second-year-in-a-row/

Regarding safety Fiat has one of the best safety averages, with many of its smaller cars enjoying the full 5-star EURONCAP rating. COnsider for example that the FIat 500 has the full 5-stars while a car such as the VW Touran (a real tank) only has 4 !!!!

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/fiat/500.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/vw_touran_2003/159.aspx

[everett whitney]

I agree w/ Cale's comments - except - even More strongly!

Since the U.A.W. has NOT been completely dissolved / eliminated from the picture & simply forced to begin anew as have been all the (previous) financial backers, any association w/ FIAT will simply be the final "Nail-In-The-Coffin!" - IMO.

My years w/ the Fiat 124S 4 door sedan plus the very lovely 2 passenger convertible MANY years ago were certainly educational BUT also indelibly-etched . . . NEVER again !

everett

[Derrick G]

Michael,

Rather than just claiming this study was hand-picked, why don't you present us with some data that show something else? I imagine they picked it because the two organizations often work together and because the UK is the one European country where they speak English. But by all means, if you feel this study is flawed, please produce some data to prove that, not just conjecture.

[Robert Ross]

I have owned FIATS for more than 30 years here in the US and my experiences have never matched Consumer Reports. I have always had good and fun experiences with FIATS. Still own a few today. I would use Consumer Reports ratings to haggle down price. Ended up with some really great bargains.

The problem FIAT had in the US were mostly their dealers. Like the statement in the article that the car needed valve adjustment at delivery. The dealers were paid to check valve clearances with many other items prior to delivery. Most dealers pocketed the money and skipped the pre-delivery inspection. Once you found someone who understood FIATs, the cars were actually very good.

Curiously, FIAT has a similar problem with their dealers in the UK. They are currently revamping their UK dealer network. They just can not do it fast enough. They just got through revamping their UK Alfa dealerships and Alfa's satisfaction rating has improved dramatically.

So Consumer Reports please start bashing away. This way maybe I can match some of my great bargains from the past. (Hint: The FIAT Abarth 500SS looks really unreliable and poorly built. Small trunk. Looks REALLY unsafe too. Please do not wait until it arrives on US shores to start bashing.)

[Chris]

While I'm not at all an expert on Fiat (aren't they in bed with Maserati or Ferrari...I dunno), I do know Chrysler. I've owned 9 cars (I'm 27) and 4 have been Chryslers. Every manufacturer makes cars that have problems. Stay clear of the 2.2 Turbo in many of the early-mid 80s Yorkers. Anyone who's taken a passing interest in cars will tell you that the name isn't everything. All these idiots have made crappy cars. I'm guessing if you bought a Chrysler with the old 3.3L, one of the old big blocks, some select 4 bangers that came in the K-Cars, the old Mercedes-built diesel or the 5.7 hemi post 2002, you either bought a lemon or your problems are minimal. My 5.7 had an oil light problem, but that was a result of faulty servicing. You don't need reliability ratings on individual cars to tell you what one to buy. Use common sense. The 5.7 Hemi has multi-displacement that gives you 4cyl-v6 fuel economy (28-32 mpg on the hwy for me, 550-600 km/tank) with 350 hp and 400 ft lbs of torque and was on Wards 10 Best every year. Most cars these days will do the trick. Find your top 3 and then see what usually goes on them. I figure if you've got a Mercedes with a powerful engine, great looks, and my warranty is until 2012 (check the miles, make sure they're 100,000 or buy the extra, you'll be glad you did), you're laughing. My 300c with all wheel drive is fantastic in the snow, is great on gas, hauls ass and there's room to spare. And the comfort and Boston Acoustic and GPS aren't bad either...LOL. I'm not trying to sell you a Chrysler. Common sense is everything. I got a re-badged Mercedes with tons of room for 25 grand (Canadian...like 16 grand US) one year old with full balance warranty and in the last year I've never had a single problem. I'm sure if you got the 3.5 300 with the same gas mileage I have and 1/2 the power and reliability, you'd be crying. Just use common sense. American cars don't suck. Some do, some don't. President Obama drove a 300c before he decided to run for president and having a V8 wasn't politically expedient. Sometimes you have to win votes from total and complete idiots. He isn't any less a president or guy who cares for the environment now that he has a hybrid than he did when he drove a 300c. Sometimes you can do more for the planet even with the rent a mob crowd throwing crap at you. I figure Chrysler should run with this. If they can do an 8 than becomes a 4, why not a 6 that becomes a 3, or a 4 that becomes a 2? Don't take away my options...give me more options so I can make the right decision. If someone isn't chasing me down with an AK-47, I'd like a car that runs great on half the cylinders. In the other case...I want the power to get the hell out of there. Sometimes I'll risk it being 1 degree hotter in 20 years (I have air conditioning in my 300c) just to save my own ass. Hope this helped you all.

[Robert Gray]

What Robert Ross says I have seen happen as well. While not Fiat related the dealership issue...is an issue. I worked at a Harley Davidson dealer and they pocketed the setup/inspection money as well, I was fired for not doing a quicky set up.

[Greg Beattie]

I have driven Jeep products since the late 80's and have found them to be the most reliable vehicles on the road. My work involved driving to remote areas of northern British Columbia in the heat of summer and bitter cold of a Canadian winter. I often found myself hundreds of kilometers from the nearest human settlement. MY JEEP NEVER LET ME DOWN!! I have owned 13 Jeeps and never had one break down. I have had minor reliability issues, particularly with body items. However, these vehicles are workhorses; not always pretty or soft but certianly touch and reliable.
My first Cherokee was driven to 500,000kms and was given to a relative who drove it until it was totalled in an accident. We pulled the head off of the I-6 engine and there was virtually no wear on the cylinder walls, (very little ridge at the top of cylinder). We currently have 3 Jeeps (Gr Cherokee, Cherokee and Wranger) and wouldn't trade them for any foreign black top cruiser. I hope Chrysler & Fiat don't mess with a proven performer.

[john]

fiat? the 500 is an impressive car for italy where the streets are as big as our sidewalks exept main ways and the highway, now i have driven the 500 not the new version but similar size and on the small streets of italy going 30kmhr with the walls of the buildings rushing by you seems that you are doing 50mphr, one of the sayings there is that if you drive faster than you should its (you are crazy going 100kmph) now thats 60mphr wich in U.S.A. is about normal speed, so what i am getting at is the little cockroach of the 500 is fine for italy but not here ,and god help you if you get into an accident with a large us truck or suv no thanks.
Until technology gets better be carefull about your (green) inspirations because that could be the grass growing on your grave. And there will be many. For the green gas or electric vehicles weight and distance is a problem.

[Robert Rein]

I presently own a Dodge Ram3500 p/u and a Dodge Magnum. I am satisfied with both. I cannot imagine that any potential car buyer would even consider purchasing a vehicle now made by the United States Government, the U.A.W. and Fiat. Let their track record speak for themselves...The United States Government has done a stellar job with AmTrak, the Postal Service, and Social Security. They couldn't even run their own Congressional Cafeteria, without it going "belly up". Now let us touch on the U.A.W...The union, whose employees (some without a high school diploma),make more money and have better benefits than college professors.They are directly responsible, in part, for the "big three's demise. In 2008, Toyota (made in the USA) sold as many cars as GM in 2008. Toyota made a substantial profit , GM lost a "bundle" DAHHHH!!!!!!Now let us take a gander at Fiat. If Mercedes couldn't boost Chrysler out of the hole they dug themselves into, what makes anyone believe that "Fiat" who was run out of the US twenty years ago because of their "crappy cars", will be Chrysler's savior!!! Last, but not least, we have Chrysler's despicable treatment of hundreds of loyal dealerships across the US, who were thrown to the wolves along with the stock and bond holders. If Chrysler made the only car..I would ride a bike!!! AMERICA WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!

[Gene]

I hope Fiat won't use Chrysler's ball joints like they had to recall all the Durango,Dakotas because of the front wheels breaking loose from their mounting points. Oh, and I hope they wont use the shifting levers that fall out of place when the vehicle is parked. Fiat has alwasys had a good safety report when come's to steering parts. Good luck with the merger guy's. Build them like your family will be driving them , and build them like your going to fix them like the independent mechanics will . Gene

[Albert]

I recon thar in UK people still buy Fiat cars and they know that Fiat cars test results in survays such a "witch car" are not good.Still thy keep buying them. Thay say, damn it my Fiat isd broken,so I will buy another one.

I don´t know about American market but here in Europe Fiat cars are all about style and substance, they provide access.tech and clean engines.

The more negative aspects for us europeans are the Dealers, but Fiat is using personal number for those u want to say clearly that a certain dealer is not acting correctly.

Italy is the style of Europe, and now Fiat cars are fashionable again. That's all that matters, we don´t want cars that last 10 years, we want cars so our neiboughrs can be jealous about.

What I am telling you people is that a cheap generalist entreprise does not give many credits to those stupid "wich car" test, those results are good for the numb asian cars, that are so sadly deseign inside and out that they must have something worth to stick in some more A to B minds.

[Brian S.]

The U.S. Government has given Chrysler 12 Billion it seems it won't even have to pay back for ongoing mismanagement and fact that the Private Investment Firm Cerberus that purchased Chrysler refuses to invest its own billions into Chrysler. Now there has been yet "another" Chrysler buyout by another foreign company, FIAT although at this time Chrysler is just referring to this as an "alliance". It would seem like deja vu all over again as the merger between Daimler and Chrysler was first referred to as a "merger of equals" for PR.

Now Chrysler wants people to believe their vehicles are now going to be better because of FIAT, who's reliability is poor itself.

Chrysler No Longer Liable For Vehicle Defects? In Chrysler's Bankruptcy, "the ability to form a new company free from product liability burden (responsibility for defects that cause injury, death and ability for victims to sue) of the old company was essential to the new company's survival" says Chrysler spokesman. In sharp contrast, GM WILL BE continuing to accept responsibility for the vehicles it designed, tested built and sold.

If anyone is interested, here's a wealth of information:
http://www.dontbuydodgechryslervehicles.com
http://www.daimlerchryslervehicleproblems.com