Future Honda hybrid cars take shape

Honda has revealed more information about its plans for future hybrid cars, announcing a timeline with several upcoming, fuel-efficient models.

In the past, the company has talked of a new “international hybrid” due out in early 2009, as well as the CR-Z hybrid sporty car due out in 2010. But little was known about the so-called “international hybrid” until now, except that logically it would probably be meant to compete with the Toyota Prius.

Honda president Takeo Fukui has revealed in a speech that the international hybrid would be reminiscent of the FCX Clarity fuel-cell model the company plans to lease to a few consumers starting this fall. The FCX Clarity is a family sedan about the size of the 2007 Honda Accord (a little smaller than the redesigned 2008 model). But the international hybrid will be a five-passenger car (rather than four in the FCX Clarity) and have a hatchback in place of the FCX’s trunk. It will not have the latest lithium-ion batteries, because Fukui says the company still considers them too expensive and risky for cars. He says Honda plans to build 200,000 of the cars worldwide, with 100,000 destined for America. Last year Toyota sold 181,000 Prius hybrids in the United States alone.

Honda also says it plans to build a hybrid-powered Fit by 2015, according to a report in Automotive News.

The company also announced the number of FCX Clarity fuel-cell cars that it will build. There will be 200, mostly for lease to consumers in Southern California. (Last fall, General Motors began loaning a fleet of its fuel-cell powered Chevrolet Equinoxes to consumers in Los Angeles, Washington, D.C., and New York metropolitan areas.)

—Eric Evarts

Comments

[Cale]

This sounds like a retreat from hybrids. Hydrogen fuel cell technology means that owners will get reduced range (versus a conventional car) and be tied to the limited availability of hydrogen refueling stations. The inconveniences will be numerous; limited hours, uncompetitive pricing, no minimart, etc. I can't imagine these cars becoming available in more than a few select metropolitan markets. Southern California comes to mind. Possibly Phoenix. I won't hold my breath for my city and you shouldn't either!

No lithium-ion cells? Either Honda knows something the folks over at GM and Toyota don't know or the other way around. Very interesting!

A hybrid-powered Fit by 2015 sounds like a shelving of plans, not a commitment to bringing more hybrid cars to market.

[Paul Rivers]

"This sounds like a retreat from hybrids."

You're misreading the article. It's going to look like the hydrogen concept car, not actually be powered by hydrogen. So it will still have the gas/electric combination that's used in every current hybrid car.

I also believe you're incorrect about Honda "knowing something that...Toyota doesn't". Toyota originally said it would use lithium ion batteries in it's next gen Prius, then changed it's mind and said it would stick with the traditional nimh. To me, it sounds like they both think the same thing - that lion battery research isn't ready to be released for powering a car in 2009.

I would certainly agree with you, however, that a hybrid powered Fit sounds more like a shelving of plans, not a commitment to bringing more hybrid cars forward. 7 years from now? They might as well say "We're thinking about it, but not sure".

[Cale]

Paul, You can understand my confusion. The blog mentions nothing about the propulsion system in the new international hybrid only that it will be reminiscent of the FCX Clarity. Talk about a lack of clarity...is that reminiscent as in "look like" or reminiscent as in "engineered like"?

As far as the batteries go...where's the timeline for the release in the new international hybrid? The blog says, "In the past,..." That's not the same as what appears in Honda's press release of 5/20/08 located here, http://www.hondanews.com/categories/955/releases/4510.

Sure, a lithium-ion powered international hybrid car available in early 2009 does sound overly ambitious. No less so than GM's announced intention of selling lithium-ion equipped Volts by 2010. BTW, I have serious doubts that GM will get a full-scale production plug-in to the market before 2015. The Volt appears to be an exercise that might see limited release. How many people are going to want to buy GM's plug-in test-mule for $35k? But good luck GM, I hope you can provide some domestic leadership!

Over at Toyota, the back and forth on when lithium-ion batteries will be available, in which generation of Prius, and their more recently announced partnership with Panasonic lead me to believe that they will be the first company to market with an affordable and mass produced lithium-ion based hybrid. Call it a hunch but I think the reason Honda is hedging on lithium-ion is because they don't have a battery partner, just yet.

I guess if I want to get it straight I'll have to do my own research.

Cale

[J K Sommer]

Where are the minivans?

When will Honda and Toyota bring us what we want? We want hybrid minivans! They would sell like hotcakes.

I can only surmise that it must be pure politics -- oil interests work with car manufacturers. If the big established auto makers don't provide what the customers want, new companies will!

[joe]

Would a Hybrid FiT sell? FiT Is a low cost conventional car that would devalue the hybrid and it's higher cost technology. The late 2015 date is probably when Honda thinks costs are down such that they can offer a low price point hybrid. The FiT is a lovely but low price point car.

The Prius is uniquely a hybrid and a status car. Conventional cars with hybrid options are not as efficent or as popular relative to the Prius.

Honda's probably copying Toyota's marketing and putting out a practical, uniquely branded vehicle that's a high mileage hybrid.

I'm glad they stopped trying to use hybrid modles to increase power and speed. The hybrid Accord was pointless.

[Ty]

FYI. www.hondacars.com provides information about Honda's future cars (i.e. CR-Z, FCX Clarity ...)

[Accordian]

Hybrid Accord pointless? How about this point... Six cylinder performance with 4 cylinder fuel economy. Honda advertising got it wrong, missed the point... like you.

[Ed]

"The Prius is uniquely a hybrid and a status car."

I think that you meant to say that the Prius is a statement car, not status car. A status car, like a status symbol, are rare items like expensive jewelry, a land rover, a mansion in the Swiss Alps, or a $10,000 diamond watch. These things cost a lot of money and server more or less, no function. The point is that they are sooooo expensive that only people of a certain status/income bracket can afford to blow their loads on them. The Prius however, is a statement car. The owner is trying to make an ideological statement about how they feel about the environment/war for oil/ energy efficiency/or whatever. At about $20,000, the same price as a basic Toyota Camery, the Prius hardly classifies as an example of a persons status. The Pruis is more along the lines of the statement you would make by shopping with reusable grocery bags, carpooling, installing solar panels on your home, or choosing to support small businesses rather than shopping at Walmart. Its a simple statement that lots and lots of people can afford to make if they chose to do so. I am not saying that driving a Pruis actually has any of these effects or endorsing any of the other examples. However, the distinction between a status symbol and buying a product that is marketed in order to make a statement about yourself to other people is an important distinction.

[Tim Mahoney]

The unspoken problem with hydrogen as a fuel source is electricity. Creating hydrogen is simple, chemically. Run an electric current through water. Presto, hydrogen gas. However, when you're talking about creating enough fuel to serve as a viable NATIONAL energy alternative, you're talking about at least 10-20X the available electricity of the nation. As it is, California browns out every summer. Where do you get that extra electricity? Can anyone spell: N-U-C-L-E-A-R P-O-W-E-R?

[Matt]

Remember, hydrogen is not a FUEL, per se, it is an energy "vehicle". It is strictly one way to convert electricity into something store-able and transportable and usable by a car or truck. Other ways to store and transport electricity are batteries, capacitors, etc.

Fuels are net-positive energy resources: oil, natural gas, etc., which have more energy in them inherently than it takes to extract them. There are no Hydrogen Mines or Hydrogen wells like there are for fossil fuels. Hydrogen has to be created completely from electricity which is made from coal, natural gas, nuclear and less so from solar and wind.

The one contributor to the blog had it right, and NUCLEAR is the only way to shift to a hydrogen economy - and we will need LOTS of it. Converting water to hydrogen is a huge net energy loser, but nuclear power is the only way create hydrogen in the quantities needed to power the nation without blackening the skies with quadrillions of tons of carbon dioxide from coal or natural gas power generation. We could do it, but it will take trillions of dollars in infrastructure and investment (100+[?] nuclear plants, hydrogen distribution centers, tens of thousands of hydrogen refueling stations, automotive R&D, automotive manufacturing redesign, etc.).

So rationally, one can make the point that this country is quite ready for electric-driven cars, *but* we need a transition technology for four or five decades until hydrogen is a real possibility. That transitional technology would be battery/capacitor plug-in electric hybrids...capable of 100+ mpg, and yet have extended range capability for the trip to grandma's house 500 miles away. And, plug-in hybrids recharge at night, when the industrial/commericial use of electricity is at a low, so no new power plants need to be built.

Consider that at in the future when we see $10/gallon gasoline, with a car getting 100+ mpg, then the PRICE PER MILE is no different than 30 years ago, when gas was a buck a gallon, but most of us drove V-8's getting 10mpg. Don't freak out about gas prices, just keep an eye on PRICE PER MILE, and keep increasing your vehicles economy to keep up with the prices...

Cheers,

Dr. Rings

[Ed]

Sure Nuclear is a great idea and all but all you are doing is trading carbon dioxide poisoning to nuclear waste dumping. That man nuke plants are going to have a LOT of waste. Our current system pays mexico to take it and burry it in a mountain somewhere. Hardly a long term plan i would say. What we really need to do, no matter what our energy source, is to use MUCH MUCH less! Buy a bike and destroy your TV. Its all the advice I can give.

[Ken Bahr]

The person that said only nuclear power can produce enough hydrogen is lame. People still don't want to believe there is an easier way to convert water to hydrogen. Water gas hybrids will be the next big thing and eventually there will be a company that will come out with a car that does not use any oil based fuel at all once there is a company that refuses to be bought out by the oil companies.

[William]

I echo JK Sommer's question on May 22nd, regarding the lack of hybrid mini-vans. Toyota has had a hybrid mini-van available in Japan since 2001 and revised it in 2007. I read that there is a market to sell these vans in the UK and I have trouble believing that its taking so long to bring something over. I've heard that mini vans are soon to be obsolete, but I don't really see anything to replace them. Where is the sporty six seat hybrid vehicle?

We had one of the first Toyota mini vans in the early 80's and it got close to 30 MPG. Yes, it was "underpowered" but I'm not convinced that everyone needs or wants as much power as found in these newer minivans .

[Seth Joyner]

I have been losing my mind lately over these crazy gas prices, and it's to the point where my job is on the line because of this.

I'm a single father of two teenage kids 14yr and 17yr old boys, and I've been in traveling sales for over 20 years now.

I work pretty much the entire southern part of my state for the company I'm employed with. And for the past 7 months, since they have not found a replacement for the previous individual who held that territory, yours truly has gotten that load 2x's per week, which equates to an extra 3000 miles per month on my car.

Right now of course my company is paying my mileage, yet even they are feeling the pinch at the pump and are in the process of "restructuring" their comp plan, so I'm left with 1 or 2 options....Quit or Use an alternative fuel on my 2005 Range Rover.

I've been surfing the net reading about hybrids, vegetable oil fuels, water, and even sand!

What should I do?

This one site I visited hypermiling.com had some pretty good tips, but some folks have told me that this technique is very risky and jeopardizing to myself and other drivers.

Another site I Googled was water4fuel.info and they had this water conversion kit and manual for about $90-$100 which claimed to increase my mileage as much as 30-50% without any modifications to my engine or warranty.

Veggy oil I was told worked on diesel, and I do not have diesel, so I won't go there, and sand??? I think this concept is not only risky, yet way off base to even consider unless someone qualified could show me otherwise.

Please Help!

[HondaFan]

Seth,

At 6000 miles per month, it's not too difficult to present a convincing case to your company to buy you a hybrid (or a more gas efficient vehicle)... The savings in gas costs alone in going from your RR to a smaller vehicle would more than cover lease cost or monthly payments. Not sure if you can fit all the stuff you need to haul, though...

So I figure @ $4 per gallon, if your Rover gets 15mpg (guessing), that's $1600 per month in gas costs alone. A car getting 30mpg would take $800 to fuel up... It would actually save your company money to buy you a car than to keep reimbursing you.

I've been getting 41mpg consistently on my Civic Hybrid....

[Lisa]

I too am waiting for the hybrid mini van!! Hello? What are car dealers thinking?? Have you looked at all the mini vans on the road?! These are middle income families with kids to feed and ball games/school to haul them too, sometimes several times per day...that equals a LOT of miles/gas. The first auto company that stops being "stupid" and mass produces a practical hybrid mini van will rule the market!! It seems like a no brainer to me! Seriously, what the heck are they thinking??

[hybrid car owner]

since I use my first honda. hybrid version I always wait for the new model and technology used. I think honda should produce a small hybrid car that is comfortable to the mothers, who need practical vehicle to shop, take the school and others.

[Alternative Energy]

There are so many hybrid cars, where are the SUVs? There are a lot of non-hybrid cars that get descent gas mileage like the corolla. We need more hybrid SUV's that are affordable to buy and get better mileage than they do now!!